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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2015 5:14:26 GMT
Just to clear things up, your version of the kaio-ken only increases the your support and offense techniques, not power level?
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Post by Liang on Apr 5, 2015 5:49:47 GMT
Again I have to agree with Vipoi. The Kaioken/Makaioken should not be treated as a pseudo-transformation, in my honest opinion. It would severely affect the balance of the site. In addition, the best examples we have of Kaioken lead to it being considered a burst of power in a clutch moment. It's powerful, but the drawbacks lead to it being not an ace in the hole, but that desperate measure that requires risk. I support the burst mentality because in most, if not all iterations we've seen of it, it was used as just that. Using the Burst system I feel accurately reflects what it was intended for in canon, while retaining the balance this site should have. Vipoi makes an excellent point on the topic of DE threads. A Kaikoken/Makaioken in a DE thread without this Burst system could severely imbalance the outcome of a battle.
With the Burst system in place, it allows the user to still be a large threat when they focus on one opponent of a DE. This is how Kaioken was mostly presented in the series. Goku would activate it at strategic times in battle, allowing him an overwhelming advantage in a short span of time because he understood the risk of keeping Kaioken up for an extended period. You can even see him deactivate it immediately after using it on strong opponents, such as Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga, or Frieza during the Namek Saga. He used it at strategic and delicate situations where it counted most, because he understood the risk. If he kept it up all the time against a strong enemy, he'd burn out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2015 14:44:33 GMT
But that's just it, the kaio-ken is technically a pseudo-transformation as it provides the user the exact same benefits as a transformation which is an increase in power, speed, senses and endurance. And the Dragon Ball series has shown that through training one can minimize the strain and damage that the kaio-ken gives the user. If that wasn't the case, Goku would have been brought to his knees from a single use of kaio-ken x10 when he was trying to survive against Frieza who was only using 50% of his power.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 5, 2015 15:06:37 GMT
A few things.
Liang gets it right with the bursty-ness of the Kaioken, and said it much better than I did. You can look throughout the lore for examples of it being used in exactly this fashion. Kaioken was never shown to be something activated for a long period as the transformations are. It is classified as a technique as well, it's an attack. Also, when you are attacking, your "attack PL' is your effective PL for that round -- so it really is just like Kaioken, where your power bursts up briefly, but when it turns off (in the next round) you are weakened from it.
Of course there will be imperfections in how it relates to the canon, but in my opinion this is a much more correct version than a stack, or a transformation, that will be on much more perpetually, imbalance the game's transformations, etc. Does it make more sense to have Kaioken outweigh SSJ1, 2 and 3? Because that would be one of the alternatives. Does it make sense for Kaioken to be on for most of a fight?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 23:01:38 GMT
But what about defense pl or speed pl? It is also insinuated in the manga that the kaio-ken can in fact be used longer than short bursts when Goku uses the kaio-ken to power up in front of Captain Ginyu. Which is shown in these two links: www.mangahere.co/manga/dragon_ball/v19/c284/14.htmlwww.mangahere.co/manga/dragon_ball/v20/c285/4.htmlSeeing how the power boost the super saiyan transformation provides the user on this site is significantly lower than the power boost it provides in canon(which is x50), maybe the kaio-ken should just increase your power by a percentage instead of multiplying.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 7, 2015 4:46:45 GMT
Um, I think those links kind of prove my point. Goku: "What you see right now is nothing compared to what I can put out in short bursts" <- Just like in the burst system -- a lower level of Kaioken (x2, x4) will be able to be used for more rounds than the higher levels, where the short bursts will be for much more damage but more costly. In the Kaioken burst system, your "defense/speed pl" for that round equals your attack pl. I think we're kind of grinding down a point to too fine an edge here, or getting too in the weeds and sidetracked. We're looking at three systems, one where there is a longer-term stack on top of all transformations, one where there is a long term independent transformation (up to 10 rounds for a x50 Kaioken, easily enough to kill several people in a DE) and one where there is a burst system, where Kaioken at low levels can be maintained for a few rounds, giving the aspect shown there in your links, or enacted at higher levels in sharper, shorter, one or two round bursts -- the latter I personally feel is the best fit here, lore-wise and for gameplay.
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Post by Reikiko on Apr 7, 2015 4:53:45 GMT
hmm... confused Rei is confused... I guess a burst system could be nice, IF it becomes worth it/is boosted. +200% damage for an attack that pretty much kicks your bucket afterwards isn't really worth it in my opinion.
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Post by Mayze on Apr 7, 2015 4:58:12 GMT
Not worth it? I beg to disagree. Take someone like Daiki for example. He fires an attack at 100% meaning 1.4 million damage. Now add Kaioken X20 and you have 300%. Which is more than enough to kill you Rei.
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Post by Reikiko on Apr 7, 2015 5:08:53 GMT
That's a good point actually. However, it would pretty much put Daiki out for the count after firing it, so that would be rather risky, then again that's how it was showed in the series. Would just have to make people remember that PL of a tech > Power + Speed, since else I'd imagine anyone would dodge/rapid movement their way out of the Kaioken attack ^^
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 7, 2015 5:09:17 GMT
Mmmhmm, it's more than worth it, it's just not domineering or a complete guarantee of victory over a group. You just have to use it tactically, which is kind of what Kaioken was all about.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 12:47:25 GMT
I feel as though a mix of the two proposed mechanics regarding Kaioken would a whole lot better. Each Kaioken level would stack onto transformations as proposed by Akio (Zucceta) but later Kaioken levels would be much more bursty. This way you can determine which stage of Kaioken would suit your battle more.
For instance say there were five levels of Kaioken. x1 to x20 with x5,x10 and x15 being the inbetween. x1 would be something like 10 posts and add onto the modifier of whatever transformation is used. (x3 + x1 = x4). x20 would do the same but last only one or two posts rather than 10. This way Kaioken would reflect on what the manga, anime and Dragon Ball Z video-games have showcased. Higher up Kaioken stages would realistically last only one or two posts and would be used in conjunction with a technique giving it a temporary power boost. Lower stages would act more as a transformation and help get a little more juice out of current transformations when needed.
Of course with the mix of the two systems we'd still need something in place as a downside to using the technique. Each level of Kaioken definitely needs to impose strain on whoever is using it.
I also propose that learning a new stage of Kaioken or training/improving it would take up a technique slot.
EDIT: What I'm suggesting really isn't anything new and it's really not something I'm taking credit for as it's taking what I see as the best of every suggestion in this thread. I just think that Kaioken should be both capable of Bursting and Transforming but not strictly limited to one or the other. With that I also think there should be a small amount of Kaioken variations. Having x1 to x75 or Ultimate seems a bit excessive. x20 being the highest is enough of a boost.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 8, 2015 14:56:39 GMT
The problem I see with that is even at times 2/4, I feel that Kaioken wasn't used as long in the lore as ten rounds feel in Souls. Just to make a comparison, no "fight portion" of a DE that I'm aware of has ever lasted that long. A +x20 1 or two round modifier as an endgame stack would be a win button, making even the lowest modifier a x59. The issue with those high stacks is like you said, there's no current downside to using it. Why wouldn't anyone always activate the x2/x3?
There is nothing stopping someone in the burst system from using the low level Kaioken/Makaioken for multiple rounds. But there is always the price there.
I'm against the stack, because I don't want to see Kaioken becoming a staple where people reflexively use it all the time. In the lore there was always a cost to using it, and I feel like the cost needs to be high enough to where it doesn't just become a regular xform stack, and it doesn't become something that people would use at all times, or something they could use to suddenly out-compete entire groups that used to individually be their equals.
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Post by Hyoza on Apr 8, 2015 15:04:17 GMT
I agree with Vi-poi's sentiments on this one. There's a reason Goku almost entirely stopped using the technique as his transformations advanced.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 15:16:29 GMT
Maybe what we need to look at here is the downside to using Kaioken and whether that downside should apply to all variations of the technique or become harsher depending on which stage it's used at. I think at higher levels of the technique Kaioken should always, like I said, remain a burst function but I also think that maybe it should be something that's high risk-high reward.
It's 1:11 am and I'm tired but what if the use of Kaioken in battle led to the user being heavily injured or immobilized no matter what stage of Kaioken you used? If we mixed the transformation and burst suggestions it would only mean that lower stages of Kaioken took longer for the negative effects to hit you. For instance if x1 lasted 10 turns after 10 turns you'd effectively be fodder or at least lose the ability to transform. Kaioken x20, the bursty Kaioken, would give you that negative effect almost straight away but if your attack were to reach your opponent in their moment of weakness you'd effectively win the battle.
You could choose to have x1 added to your transformation and try to out-best your opponent in 10 turns or you could choose to have x20 and use Kaioken as a burst-move to wipe out your opponent in an all out strike or in their moment of weakness.
Just a quick suggestion.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 8, 2015 15:33:32 GMT
You're kind of describing how the burst system works. For instance, you can activate it for a few rounds at x2 and come out after dishing out multiple rounds of additional damage, with a bit of damage yourself, or you can expend all of your energies in one or two much sharper bursts. The cost is all up front as an after-use PL malus, so like Kaioken in the lore overusing it can kill you.
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