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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 16, 2015 1:52:30 GMT
An increasingly annoying issue that seems to be showing up is that trying to update any of the races involves adversely affecting the lesser races, Hybrids and Bio-Androids (in the racial choice category in its 3 base races). Here's a massive point here, going on with the discussion with what to do with Demons and their Demonic Skill without having Hybrids being suddenly stronger than saiyans (as they are stylized by them): wodsouls.freeforums.net/threads/recent/4861Another point would be that if someone wants to make an Alien hybrid, what are they going to choose from their race repertoire, when we have players coming with ideas that, if they try to make a hybrid version of the character, you can't make it halved without the hybrid proving to be superior than the dominant parent race most of the time. So, what needs to happen is this: Hybrids stylized after a dominant parent's race follow the same transformation path and must meet the pl and technique requirements as such. However, they suffer a -1 in all transformation multipliers, except for Ultimate Potential (A transformation that should be readily available to the Shin-Jin to unlock, which are still currently being made), to enable the hybrid to easily be created and being able to do what the dominant parent's race is able to do, at a weaker scale, without worrying about the idea that they're gonna be broken and have people complaining about their power (that's what this thread is for. To get it out of the system fully, here and now). What I'm anticipating is that people will say, "Why try to fix what ain't broken?" Humor me by thinking out these suggestions. Write out a combat situation as a hybrid with the proposed change. They're choosing traits from parents to make them keep up with the other races as a whole (Saiyan Human Hybrid's a mighty popular one, if I do say so myself), but why... Why are they Saiyan transformations subtracted by 1 and only this?
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 16, 2015 2:06:47 GMT
This is for the Hybrids, but what about Bio-Androids?
Well, here's a compiled list of what we can do for them:
1) Human traits: 5500 PL per Tech slot to be available to them, additional 125 zeni (the least likely bonus anyone will go for), 2.5% zeni gain to threads acquiring zeni.
2) Demons: Currently, the thought is up in the air. If they wanted to get the Demon Technique, since Hybrids would be at x2 added on to their current power ((current transformation multiplier+2)xbase power level, for the curious bunch to see what the transformation multiplier would be), the Bio-Android set up would be an unchargeable MP3 skill. As for the '4th technique' that they currently get at the beginning that is only a Demonic counterpart ability... Well, you got me there! I don't know what do for them there!
3) Namekians: Regeneration comes at every 80k power level, for the traits that currently stand from Namekians don't yield anything beneficial for the Bio-Android to take up that have a prehensile mechanic to work upon.
4) Saiyans: This is already figured out in the staff area, so there's no need to worry your heads off here.
5) Any brand of Alien: The race needs to come up with an easy to break down mechanic so that they can be used by Hybrids and Bio-Androids alike. This is mid air.
Those are the thoughts on bio-android, in case you're wondering why there was no mention for Bio-Android. Getting this its own little post. Moving on... Any thoughts?
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Post by Raisu Hanamura on Oct 16, 2015 18:44:49 GMT
I'm just going to throw in my two cents, and try to stay away from the dreaded "if it ain't broke" don't fix it.
The way I see it yes, hybrids are confusing. They're quite obviously based off the assumptions most people will be playing Saiyan hybrids. And that's not a poorly found idea. I mean, I play one myself. And I hope I don't come off as biased or commenting in self-interest from here on out.
I think hybrids, as they stand, are always going to be wonky. I personally think we're better off sticking to the current system of progression for them. While "dominant race multiplier -x1" isn't a bad idea initially, I don't think its the way to be. For one, all the hybrids we see in the anime/manga are incredibly strong and probably capable of standing toe to toe with their full blooded counterparts. Of course, we deal with a different kinds of power here, so this point might be moot.
Secondly, based on that idea for multipliers, does this suddenly change the max multiplier for Ultimate Potential? Because if not, I see no reason why to ever take ultimate potential unless you are playing a hybrid with a dominant side that has a max multiplier x45 or less. I assume there could be a caveat capping racial dominant transformation as x44 as there is now, but I fill like that's not the way to be. Say I were playing a Brench-Human hybrid, either side dominant and I really wanted to cap out with my racial transformation. Of course that would be a x47 or a x49 multiplier on either side, but if we limit that it would only serve to widen the gap between hybrids and fullbloods.
And personally, I don't think the combination of traits from both races is really all that game changing. I'll personally use the Saiyan-Human traits as examples, since those are the ones people are familiar with. They get the following: Tail weakness, lesser zenkai, technique slots at every 5k, and an extra 250 starting zeni. Of course, this isn't accounting for racial transformation of the potential transformations. So what do they get? A weakness, which I suppose you could say the lost their tail in their backstory. Then an incredibly situational PL boost, which in of itself has been debated recently. Technique Slots at 5k, which in my opinion is the greatest benefit, but even this falls by the way side as people start to fill reach the upper echelons of power. And then there's the extra 250 zeni, which all well and good I suppose, but I don't think it's really a huge thing.
And of course, the analysis changes from species to species, but by and large these are the most common.
So, how do I feel about these proposed changes? I think they are either:
A) Not needed.
or,
B) If they happen, I think a lot more thought needs to go into balancing it. Because the way I see it, it's just a big nerf to something that really isn't broken. I'd imagine you would need to sweeten the pot somehow if hybrids were going to be gimped in some capacity, whether it be through unique traits just for hybrids or a revamped capstone transformation.
Those are my thoughts, and I hope I presented them clearly.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 16, 2015 20:33:49 GMT
The traditional Hybrid saiyan would be staying the same and a human Hybrid would become something that immediately gets expressed as the next strongest thing on site. This, I immediately understood. By the way, the hybrid only gets to choose 1 trait from the recessive/lesser race. Not 2 traits, but moving back to the subject at hand.
Here's the thing: The normal pathing for a Saiyan Hybrid would be remaining the same. Granted, certain Hybrids would instantly be made as a priority, but then this in turn reveals that certain races need tweaking to fulfill the needs of other races. The site brings forth the mechanics and abilities of other races, and to be frank, I've felt the Humans getting a sudden x50 is way too much of a gap between the other race, as I have felt about Alien A since they get Permanent transformations. Bringing them down to (for Humans and Alien A in that respective order) x48 permanent and x46 permanent would immediately show an equilibrium with the other races, but still show that they're among the higher strained races. Of course, at the same time, bringing down their required PL would be a counterbalance to the nerf.
Bring this into account, the Hybrids of Alien A and Human dominant traits would be, in that order, x45 and x46. This would also mean that Ultimate Potential could adversely effect the race in different manners, and by this, I mean have a list of effects specified for each specified race.
As a side note, the combination of traits actually provide more power to the player than a purebreed player could realize. The better combination of traits a Saiyan Human hybrid would be the dominant traits of Saiyans (the tail, the weaker zenkai, and the moon transformations), with the inclusion of the Human Greed (a small increase in zeni threads). If a person is smart and plays their hand at gathering their ship(s), gravity chambers, rejuvenation chambers, and heavy weights for the early game, their game is designed for them to extensively increase their power level in the matter of a week after they acquire the items to at least 50k power level (taking into account the 20k word usage per week and the 2 gravity training threads a week, followed up with 3 non gravity training threads a week), which is daunting.
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Post by Raisu Hanamura on Oct 16, 2015 20:53:39 GMT
Ah, my mistake on the trait matter. I apologize for that. It seems I might have misread the hybrid page then, but I can't find that even now. Maybe I'm missing it because of mobile or because the info is in another thread.
I'm in agreement with all of that.
On the subject of human greed for hybrids: I didn't know that was an option. It certainly isn't listed under the hybrid page as of last update.
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Post by Natto on Oct 16, 2015 20:54:55 GMT
I'm in favor for Humans to reach the maximum boost of the board, that of x50 because they are stucked into a midgame transformation of x22 until they reach end game. So it's only fair they get a proper rewards. On the other hand, I do feel that Alien A is really unbalanced due to the early x48 transformation. The requirement is lower than, let's say, mastered super saiyan 3, which only gives you a x45 transformation. Due to that I feel like most people make their aliens to fit the alien A category, even though they could be easily considered alien B. Therefore, I would be in favor of changing the mechanics of Alien A, but I don't think we should alter humans.
About the hybrids, I feel they are good the way they are right now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 22:33:32 GMT
I think hybrids are kinda fine how they are =P They are niether the best nor the worst but a nice little setting somewhere in the middle x3 I'd say they are fine where they are and throw my hate in hte if it ain't broke don't fix it section.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Oct 17, 2015 9:18:02 GMT
As you well know, I think hybrids are fiiiiiine as is.
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Queen Habana
Moderator
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Post by Queen Habana on Oct 17, 2015 18:31:25 GMT
I kinda agree with the sentiment that Hybrids are fine as-is. BUT if they were to be changed I feel like making them more unique than 'base race with -1 transformations' would be a better route, something akin to a blend of the two races with a focus on the style of the main race. I tried a bit ago to come up with Dominant and Lesser style hybrid traits.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 17, 2015 21:04:04 GMT
Mind you, this mentality is based upon the idea that the Hybrids, as they stand (save for the difference between Hidden/Trained Potential/the x4 form and FSSJ's x6, as well as Ultimate Potential) points that they are a diluted Saiyan with minor trade offs (the saiyan zenkai and saiyan transformations suffering this trade off for the racial perk from the other race).
What's a problem is that they're only designed to be based upon Half-Saiyan and Half Human, with no proper balancing act when put into the position of Human and Demon, Demon and Human, Saiyan and Demon, and so forth. Consider this: The description of the transformation is that they're supposed be stylized after the dominant parent race's transformations. This, in turn, is to suggest that they should be meeting the modifiers as well but what we're doing is permitting the race to overpower certain species their sheer power that they base their transformations on and get higher perks. What, I ask, makes this ok?
If it's a matter of making them still appealing, isn't the fact they can get perks of their parents appealing enough? If it's the issue about a Human stylized Hybrid with Zenkai chosen as a saiyan perk, should this change go through, this would mean that what appears to be broken cog in a machine that isn't turning in the machine symbolizes that there needs to be a fine tuning of the cog or overall replacement of such. For instance, we can possibly replace the Human's x50 with a x44, with the a new perk that a Hybrid character can make use of (down below).
'Tenaciousness Strength: Many sorts of people, even Humans themselves, often get surprised at a Human's tenacity to achieve something, even when it seems lost. Utilizing this strength, when defeat is almost certain, a Human may suddenly over power a foe with a Special boost that adds in an additional 200% of their power level to their attack, at the expenditure of -3 KP with parted results. Should they use this when they have 3 KP, they will maintain consciousness and be able to continue the fight if their opponent is still alive, but they will suffer a dramatic decrease in overall fighting power by 50% for 5 posts. If they have 2 KP or less, they begin adding their own life force. With 2 KP, they will lose consciousness upon usage of the empowered technique in this most dire time. If they only have 1 or no KP, they will expunge all of their life force and die, once the attack is over.'
Long story short for Human Trade off: Add 200% to attack, when near death and no way to restore life. KP of 3 will enable further survival, but drop Human fighting power by 50%. 2 KP=KO after usage of technique. 1 or 0 KP= Death.
How this translates to Hybrids, if they follow this route: Add 100% to attack, when near death and no way to restore life (think Gohan vs. Cell Beam clash). Same rules applied for above. Demon-Human and Human-Demon can combine this trait with their Demonic Skill. Before you over-react, I'm going to write out numbers, using the suggested format I came up with. I'll make sure the important information below is bolded, so you can just take it from there.
Human-Demon Player is proceeding, in their grand desperation, to use a Tenacious Demonic Attack (combination of Tenacious Strength and Demonic Skil). They are currently at their highest tier form of x43 transformation (Remember, I'm suggesting Humans be at x44 and Hybrids have a -1 to all transformations.), with a power level base of 500,000 (it's an easy number to work with). Remember, as a Hybrid, they're also halving the Demon tech power, so that means this is going to be Current Power Level+(500,000x2). They are immediately releasing their Human Tenacious Strength at +100% their current power (500,000x43). Now, then, here's the equation written down, without these sentences.
(500,000*43) + (500,000*2) + (500,000*43). The shortest version of this is 500,000x88, the answer of which is 44 million. In the act of desperation, the Human-Demon, the stronger variation of the two, would suddenly become a threat, assuming that this is fired against someone of equal power level or maybe someone of 150% their power level. Would it kill the person? Probably not, but the act of desperate tenacity is a thing to not be trifled with. A Human would still maintain the ability to be a 'top dog', despite fact it's at a lower power level.
If this is what you saw in the Human's profile, we'd see that Humans still remain as a wonderful choice to pick up. What do you guys think on that?
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Post by Natto on Oct 17, 2015 21:12:29 GMT
Pieter... Is this Tenaciousness Strength a trait to be added to all humans?
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 17, 2015 21:53:01 GMT
Yes, but only if Humans get nerfed to the x44 in the process with the Hybrids via the -1 to transformation multipliers. If we're planning on the Ultimate Potential remaining the same base power level x 45 set up, then this would result in them possibly coming out with an instant currentx2, which technically put humans into the realm of having an additional x88 to their next attack.
Considering Technique clashes, this boost would lose 50% of its power, as the design is originally meant for the Human to instantly fire off their attack, no longer continuing it. However... I do consider the 0 KP blast to be rather inappropriate with the KP battle system, as you're already about to kill yourself off with a 1 KP blast, so changing the set up to being able to activate so long as you have 1 KP available would be the balancing act.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2015 2:03:07 GMT
Not sure I quite understand it but I really don't like altering them or just focusing on possible perks XD Since not all races are picked hybrid wise for their perks or traits nor do all hybrid possible races actually offer great things to said hybrids =P Humans really only seem to be the race to hybrid with for the good stuff most others are just kinda for fun. I think they are fine as if they were to be changed ALL hybrid possible races would need more things added to make them actaully work it then just being oh your story leaves you lacking cause you didn't want to pick for perks rather then story you had in mind.
=P I mean see your idea for a human trait ok. But now what about all other types of hybrids. I'm all up for new trait ideas but I still don't see this appealing at all towards changing hybrids in the least. I rather strongly feel against morphing them about unless it'd be looked at for absolutely all hybrid possible races getting similar treatment and even then I really don't see hte problem in the hybrids as is. They already suffer for a bit in the beginning losing a x1 from earlier transformations. Is it really so bad letting them match up later game? XD It just seems fair enough to me that after so long you can at least match up to your pure blood brethren. Being a hybrid doesn't mean weak it just means deluded blood =P That doesn't mean that sooner or later they don't match up. I personalyl feel they are fine and my vote would likely go to keeping them the same as they are now
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2015 2:13:04 GMT
I get the point hybrids have the neat feature of picking traits from family races but not all races have great perks and some have ones that are only under certain circumstances. I think they should remain as is and just simply let people be picking what races they want for parents as story wise rather then possible ok which family gives me the best traits =P
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 1:52:48 GMT
I want to say that I am not in favor of this purely because I think the demon racials as they stand - if your idea doesn't go through- are terrible for hybrids. Even as a dominant race.
This most likely isn't the place for this but it HAS been a point of contention for me ever since I made Zerori. I may have a unique character that is a Demon/Saiyan hybrid but that, I'm afraid is where the greatness ends.
Here's the racials I get as a Demon dominant saiyan hybrid: - Part-Saiyans: A slightly weaker version of the Zenkai, and Tail Weakness. - Part Demons: A fourth starter technique. (not a special)
Pros: * Transformation appearance is not restricted * Higher transformation buffs than a Demon Full-Blood
Cons: * Zenkai has been a subject of debate to many, more so since it depends on escaping alive while near death and then recovering - at the staff's approval. As such, it's hardly utilized. And we get a weaker version of it. * Tail weakness. Just... this. We all understand why it's there. What I don't understand is why give a weakness to a race when it's strength is hardly able to be utilized. * The Demon racial we get a hybrid is... quite honestly just an extra skill point. An extra N1 and that's pretty much the extent our benefits as demons. That is LITERALLY the only thing that makes Zerori demonic mechanically and no one can really tell.
--
Now, if the demonic racials were modified as per your suggestions and hybrids get a piece of that - it won't be so bad. However, my position is that where it stands my racial abilities as a demonic hybrid (saiyan recessive) are hardly worth anything. Am I complaining about how much fun I have as such a character? Not in the least! I love Zerori's character and I won't stop playing her as such. Do I wish that her racials were more significant for her to compete mechanically against other races?
Damn right I do.
So I can't accept bringing hybrid transformations down by -x1. With all due respect, that's the only thing that is worth a damn on my character mechanically.
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