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Post by Liang on May 28, 2015 20:56:02 GMT
I agree with Zuni. I like how the higher you go, the more your combat style lends itself to more and more released power. It's like comparing two fighters in Dragonball to two fighters in DBZ.
Whereas DB would be 3 KP; lots of martial artsy, with a few trump cards when the going gets rough.
DBZ, AKA beyond 3 KP: Still martial artsy, but now you have a larger resource pool to yank destructive attacks from, making battles more destructive and flashy on the scale at large.
I'm assuming KP would be granted from base rather than transformed PL, otherwise that could get pretty insane.
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Post by Zuni on May 28, 2015 20:56:56 GMT
That's a fair point. This system would also mean that the best tactical decision if you're slightly higher than your opponent isn't always to slam another attack into the one coming your way, because you might want to save your KP for later. The more I think about this the more I like it
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Post by Hyoza on May 28, 2015 21:15:32 GMT
With regards to unlocking more KP as you go on - I'd like to point out that this system really isn't that limiting.
You can INDEFINITELY fire an N1 every other round (your KP charges back to full in the gap posts). The higher tiers have higher cost, because they're designed to be more destructive - with MP3s being killing-intent attacks.
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Post by Vennel on May 28, 2015 21:21:55 GMT
The only problem I have with this, as is, is that until you get to 200k you can't charge a UP2, and until you get to 600k, you can't charge a MP3 >>
EDIT: Unless that is intentional, in which case, meh. I don't mind, then.
Also, specials would need to be worked into this, unless they're being lumped in with MP3 costs.
And yes, would the advancement be based on base PL? Because transformations/permanant multipliers could very quickly make this system get a bit out of hand.
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Post by Zuni on May 28, 2015 21:22:46 GMT
I'd certainly be happy to see how it works in play, and if we all find we're bored by the time we get up to 500k and would like to be throwing more around, we can address that then. It is easier to add in than take away as a general rule.
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Post by Hyoza on May 28, 2015 22:25:26 GMT
The only problem I have with this, as is, is that until you get to 200k you can't charge a UP2, and until you get to 600k, you can't charge a MP3 >> EDIT: Unless that is intentional, in which case, meh. I don't mind, then. Also, specials would need to be worked into this, unless they're being lumped in with MP3 costs. And yes, would the advancement be based on base PL? Because transformations/permanant multipliers could very quickly make this system get a bit out of hand. People don't seem to understand, you can charge a tech for free. the cost is per-use, not per-charge. So you can fire an N1 at 33% for 1KP, or charge and then fire the next round, for the same cost. The price of charging is that you spend a post you could've spent doing something else preparing a more powerful attack. So, as an example: Prepare to fire an N1 (-1KP) in first round --> Charge to 66% and fire in second round. Your KP is still at 2, because the charge does not cost you any additional KP, but while you are charging, your pool does not replenish itself. So you could fire an MP3, fully-charged, with a pool of just 3KP. The price of which is that you'd have to spend the next 3 rounds without using any techs to do that again. This makes battle a lot more tactical and introduces a lot more thought into it than the way things have been done thus far, and personally I think it's going to enforce a playstyle a lot more akin to the fighting we see in the actual series, with techs used as 'heavy' attacks, interspersed with more 'normal' fighting.
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Post by Vennel on May 28, 2015 22:28:09 GMT
Ah my bad. It's just that I got confused when I read this. Every time someone doesn't fire or charge a technique, they gain 1 KP up to their maximum. It makes it sound as though charging a technique would require points. Or at the very least, is how I understood it. Probably, for the sake of clarity, the whole "charging does not cost KP" should be stated explicitly then, if this is implemented.
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Post by Benetto Giri (Fluentinnerd) on May 29, 2015 0:46:09 GMT
From what I'm reading of this, charging doesn't cost any extra KP, but you don't gain any while you're charging, either. For the record, I really like this concept, I was just running into a few issues with the lack of rules regarding physical combat, and streamlining the very vague "godmodding" rule is very nice. I like adding more definition to the physical attacks to give them increased relevance, and it doesn't really harm the system very much as mutual agreement is the unsaid veto to almost any combat rule, allowing for situations which would be more interesting still be applicable, but in times of disagreement it's also good to have a base set of how things work. Which is the long, rambling version of saying that this is good, I support it.
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Post by President Bao on May 29, 2015 13:01:40 GMT
Have not had the chance to go over this fully but: Uh, Guys... what am I reading? >.> They're called 'offensive techniques', not 'ki blast techniques', this is very much on purpose. You want melee attacks, then make melee techniques, there is literally nothing which makes ki blasts better than melee combat since they follow the exact same mechanics. Additionally, the point of being an actual good roleplayer is to flavour your posts in such a way that they contain actual substance, not just sitting there saying you 'dun a kamekameka' several times. Unfortunately, we can't *make* you not roleplay like a dunce ( ), you have to do it yourself. Roleplay is a dance, all about give and take, pacing, winning isn't about just 'doing all the steps the fastest' it's about finesse and engagement. To clarify, what are you guys counting as 'technique spam'? If you just mean that someone is using an ability/charge every post then that's kinda the point of combat. You respond to the opponents moves, you taunt a little, you engage in some fluff and then you end it off with your big play, mechanically you then note the cumulative effect. (be it you talking while preparing a charge, talking and bracing yourself to dodge/block, engaging in a melee brawl and then using super punch, actively blasting, whatever) Eg. Bao clinched his fist, like the crack of a leather strap skin contorted tight over knuckle and sinew, fingers biting down into the meaty palm - The enemies blasts came at him, sadistic jackolaterns promising pain in their baleful glare, the president however... Grinned. With a twirling leap he ducked and weaved through the scattershot, closing the gap with a glint in his eyes and the wind rushing past his moustache, hair flaring like wildfire. As the final shot reared, the ruler of Earth smashed downwards, fist all but obliterating the hastily tossed ki. Who's 'standing around doing nothing' now?
"Is that all you've got? Fancy light tricks with no substance?" he taunted, cracking his neck and colliding his fists in an overly macho display. He waited for his enemies response, but in truth he wasn't the sort of man to pay any heed no matter what they said "You're going dooooooown no matter what" He flexed some more, his polka-dot tie whipping around over his shoulder. In an explosive movement he sprung forward, although he didn't realise it ki flowed into every limb and his muscles bulked visibly. With a swift move his knee come up, then his elbow came down, and then a thrashing of punches sounding out as the backing vocalist to the symphony that was the president's boxing prowess. A devastating attack.
(Super Monobrow Brawl [MP3], used instantly for 100% pl (19,000), your move )---------- As for Vi-poi's proposal about KP (have only read his original post on it, not anything following)... Combat is already quite complicated as is with charging and the interplay of different technique types, adding even more currencies to the fold just makes it more stifling and complex (one of our draw cards is our simplicity, no stats nightmares just story writing and power level as a guide for strengths) I understand where this is coming from but really, I try to avoid introducing complexity to 'active' elements of the gameplay when I make suggestions(keeping it for passive/background elements), and I guenuinely suggest you do too. When people are playing a battle they don't want to be doing math homework, they just wanna be able to write the story of their fight.
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Post by Zuni on May 29, 2015 13:11:42 GMT
Combat isn't complicated at the moment, it is braindead simple. If you want to, there is nothing stopping you charging your 100% power move and using it over and over, which turns even a small PL advantage into an unbeatable one if your opponent is trying to keep the numbers in mind with the fight.
That's a pretty huge flaw, in my opinion.
This system isn't very complicated either, and would bring in some rhythm to the game. Structure is not a hindrance to creativity; in fact, rules and structure are extremely helpful when putting together a story. Right now, the feeling that I've seen is that almost all fights are over extremely quickly because people throw their biggest moves over and over again. For that purpose, it doesn't matter if those moves are physical or energy, it matters that they charge up extremely fast and you can immediately follow it up with yet another big attack.
From my perspective, it actually makes it a bit less complicated because suddenly, I (as someone who has little experience with extreme freeform combat) have guidelines as to how and where I can use my defensive techniques without seeming cheap, and what sort of pacing I'm looking at when deciding whether to use an N1 or an MP3 or what have you.
The mathematics involved in this are FAR less daunting than the mathematics involved in calculating whether I am within 80% of my opponent or what the PL on my 33% move is after I've charged it for 4 turns, and that stuff is already there - except nobody has any reason to use anything less than their max technique at the moment because if they do they're opening themselves up to a big counterattack.
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Post by Hyoza on May 29, 2015 14:45:39 GMT
Bao, I understand the intent behind the current system. But very few other members do.
This provides a structure, giving a clear role to 'standard' attacks. At no point has anyone stated that offensive techs HAVE to be ki blasts, though in the rush of posting (when this thread started people were posting in it like every couple of minutes), people may have mis-spoken. This system also provides greater balance to combat - higher level players of course still have the advantage, but this introduces a tactical layer that will assist lower level fighters in battling against their on-paper superior foes.
I understand that you have this vision for gameplay here, but I think it's fair to say that in this case, everyone else has a better understanding of what actually goes on during RP combat than you do. The current system works fine when there's mutual agreement and people are happy to let things slide or OOCly discuss the 'rules' for their battle amicably.
But EVERY TIME a competitive (usually DE) battle arises, what happens? Argument, accusations of god-moding, ignorance of the rules, dodging constantly. Kaula received a complaint about such behaviour just last night.
We wouldn't NEED this system, perhaps, if everyone was on the same page as you. But they aren't. The system honestly isn't that complex, and it lends an exciting new tactical layer to combat that didn't really exist back then. Why oppose it? It literally just adds a sort of 'mana bar' to combat, denoting how often you can use techniques without allowing it to recharge. Nice, simple, and definitely something people will be familiar with, if they play almost any RPG, or even some of the DBZ fighting games like Xenoverse.
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 29, 2015 16:52:47 GMT
The nice thing about KP is it's the same for everyone, it's intuitively tied to the technique tiers, it addresses dodging, it addresses larger ki attacks taking more energy out of you (as shown in virtually every big power attack in canon, instead of the MP3 infinite energy mega-move vs dodge spamming we have now) and it's 3 numbers that everyone can understand pretty easily.
People already have their calculators out in fights. Subtracting numbers 1 through 3 shouldn't prove much of a challenge.
I understand your argument about simplicity of design, I took it to heart when making this and tried to tie everything together and make it as level as possible, but keeping things as it is does not address the problem we're having during intense competitive play, where people either dodge inappropriately, dodge too often, or fights ending too quickly (1 or 2 rounds frequently in a DE) because all they do is pump out MP3 every turn. That might not seem like a technical issue, but participants get very unhappy with it. This will turn fights into more of that give and take you talk about, it will formalize dodge, and force periods where there is no fight-ending tech use. It will make MP3s feel more like people's ultimate attacks, as well.
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Post by Kaula on Jun 4, 2015 8:55:02 GMT
I like the idea of KP, and it is currently being tested in a thread.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 8, 2015 21:01:47 GMT
As we're using KP and thrashing out the system in play - a question arises.
Demon x4 Skills.
At the moment these sit outside the usual advancement structure. What should they cost in KP?
In a lot of ways, they are the major benefit you get as a demon - your trump card and ace in the hole you get in place of the ability to regenerate, escape death, or a more juicy transformation structure. I think it should cost 1 KP to activate with that in mind (so you don't regen when using it and you can't throw it right after an MP3, but it is almost always a presence in the fight). I can see the argument for it costing more, but as it was described in the cbox a while ago - fighting a Demon is a lot like fighting someone with full super meter in a fighting game. You have to keep in mind that they can whip out their big gun, even if they never do, and that tactical effect it has makes it interesting.
I am obviously not an unbiased party in this, though, so I'd like to hear other thoughts.
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Post by Kaula on Jun 8, 2015 23:28:30 GMT
Also, just a heads up. Charging techs, such as my Ki Gathering would take up no KP.
I would like to say that we shouldn't do three as max. I feel like it should be four, five, maybe six at most? And this is after me testing it out in about three threads.
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