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Post by Kaula on May 25, 2015 18:00:04 GMT
I'm actually going to retract my earlier broad support for this idea. This is too much of a parallel to a guardian, which evidence suggests is a position connected with the Kais. Kais ain't never gonna give all this junk to a demon. She's a mischievous demon, it doesn't feel quite right for her to be given all these freebie handouts and a special. I could go into more detail with my reasoning, but slogging through 20+ grades is frazzling my brains, so I'll elaborate more later. True, I just did some rereading and I remembered that she wouldn't necessarily be the guardian due to that fact; but. ... But. We don't want her to be the guardian, we simply want her to fill a role similar to it. She'd fit the case, she's more then willing to do all the RP work to get to it. We're not saying this is going to be an over-night type of thing.
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Post by Hyoza on May 25, 2015 18:03:37 GMT
If she builds her way towards it, then we should re-open the discussion nearer the time it becomes pertinent, imo.
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Post by Kaula on May 25, 2015 18:07:03 GMT
We already have overwhelming support, though. You are literally the only person opposing it at this current time. We're discussing it NOW so she doesn't do all the work to get to it, only to be slapped down by someone to tell her that her work was fucking worthless and doesn't deserve the position.
"i mean clearly its not really a kami, so much as a demon poking fun at the way kaio do things" - Something that someone said when you brought up the guardian thing, btw.
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Post by Zuni on May 25, 2015 18:09:55 GMT
Well, I'd like some numbers to know what I'm working towards.
If we could get a consensus on what I actually need to accomplish (for instance - can't be King or Queen of Vegeta before 10k PL) then I'll be totally happy.
At the moment, my thought was (obviously) contingent on RP, get to minimum 70k PL (and thus able to claim 'Daimou' status), 25k zeni for a dojo, 20k for the max. house (... although really I want the house ASAP because I want my MOON PALACE. I make no apologies for desiring a Moon Palace).
The trouble is, unlike Saiyan King or Kami, there's no previously-established progression path so I'd like some community input towards where the milestones should be and what you guys would like to see out of the end result. RP is a collaborative endeavour, after all!
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Post by Hyoza on May 25, 2015 18:27:14 GMT
Aside from the peaches, literally everything you discuss can be achieved with shop-bought buildings/items.
So, once all that is done, we can talk about giving her a PL boost item. What's the point right now? It's not going to happen for at least a month yet, and we have plenty of other stuff going on that's higher priority atm.
Also, there were other people against this - Mayze and Zucc come to mind. They just haven't posted in here yet.
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Post by Kaula on May 25, 2015 18:27:42 GMT
Well, I'd like some numbers to know what I'm working towards. If we could get a consensus on what I actually need to accomplish (for instance - can't be King or Queen of Vegeta before 10k PL) then I'll be totally happy. At the moment, my thought was (obviously) contingent on RP, get to minimum 70k PL (and thus able to claim 'Daimou' status), 25k zeni for a dojo, 20k for the max. house (... although really I want the house ASAP because I want my MOON PALACE. I make no apologies for desiring a Moon Palace). The trouble is, unlike Saiyan King or Kami, there's no previously-established progression path so I'd like some community input towards where the milestones should be and what you guys would like to see out of the end result. RP is a collaborative endeavour, after all! You don't need any of that, you only need 10k, that seems to be what Scargot did, and this would be a similar role.
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Post by Zuni on May 25, 2015 18:37:13 GMT
Aside from the peaches, literally everything you discuss can be achieved with shop-bought buildings/items. So, once all that is done, we can talk about giving her a PL boost item. What's the point right now? It's not going to happen for at least a month yet, and we have plenty of other stuff going on that's higher priority atm. Also, there were other people against this - Mayze and Zucc come to mind. They just haven't posted in here yet. I think the idea was that it'd be nice to have confirmation the concept itself is fine. Since a few people have taken issue with that in cbox, that seems like a concern that is worth addressing in advance. Unlike the role of Kami or King, there is no reasonable expectation for this position to exist at all - so we may as well lay the foundations before we start trying to build the house, no? If it isn't acceptable and the consensus is 'No, keep your non-canon mysticism out of my Vegeta' (which it might still become) then that's fine too; I'm not out to ruin anyone else's good time, but it would be incredibly frustrating to invest tons of time into a direction of character development which is then shut down hard. I'd like to know in advance and I'd like to be clear about my OOC intentions for the IC direction of my character; in my experience, trying to do things out of nowhere suddenly because you have the 'power' to do it causes a lot of unwanted bad feeling. If/when Zuni gets to the point where she could achieve this position, I'd like it to be widely expected OOCly and something people are ready to jump on with plot ideas - rather than a left-field surprise which causes drama. For the record - I don't even REALLY care about the peaches having a mechanical impact. I care about the concept having merit and being possible to achieve on the site - opening me up to provide a wide range of plot threads and support for characters with ties to Vegeta. Any mechanical support is just icing on the cake.
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Post by Kaula on May 25, 2015 18:48:15 GMT
If it isn't acceptable and the consensus is 'No, keep your non-canon mysticism out of my Vegeta' (which it might still become) then that's fine too; I'm not out to ruin anyone else's good time, but it would be incredibly frustrating to invest tons of time into a direction of character development which is then shut down hard. I'd like to know in advance and I'd like to be clear about my OOC intentions for the IC direction of my character; in my experience, trying to do things out of nowhere suddenly because you have the 'power' to do it causes a lot of unwanted bad feeling. If/when Zuni gets to the point where she could achieve this position, I'd like it to be widely expected OOCly and something people are ready to jump on with plot ideas - rather than a left-field surprise which causes drama. Don't worry about your status as a former trickster god/demon of Vegeta being in question. It was 100% approved by Hyoza, no less.
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Post by Hyoza on May 25, 2015 18:48:34 GMT
As me and Rev said in the cbox - no issue whatsoever with you doing this. We just didn't realise initially that you intended to work towards it, we thought it was gonna be an implemented pre-made position, which is what we opposed.
If you build up to this through RP and plot, that is good for the site, and I personally have no issue.
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Post by Kaula on May 25, 2015 18:50:18 GMT
As me and Rev said in the cbox - no issue whatsoever with you doing this. We just didn;t realise initially that you intended to work towards it, we thought it was gonna be an implemented pre-made position, which is what we opposed. If you build up to this through RP and plot, that is good for the site, and I personally have no issue. She didn't plan on working towards it. I approached her about it. She liked the idea, and I offered to write up the suggestion thread. Which I did.
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Post by Vennel on May 25, 2015 18:50:21 GMT
If aside from the peaches, everything is achievable in character and in game, then we can safely put that aside. This discussion then becomes whether or not the peaches are doable. Because as it is now, the site seems to care a lot for balance. Balance that good guys or evil are not inherently better than the other side. That's why skills such as makaioken are being developed, no?
Then in that case, it behooves the staff to allow a means/method for an evil aligned character to attain a low power power boost, as good characters currently have 2 options that can potentially stack, if Im reading this right (guru's potential unlock, and kami's holy water.)
What I've been seeing come from the nay sayers of this entire proposition, (and feel free to correct me if wrong, and this only applies to two of the nay sayers that I've witnessed, as they are the only two) has essentially boiled down to this: You're asserting lore and creating something not too out of left field that could provide depth of culture and development for the Saiyan race and planet vegeta. But because we, staff members, have already come up with an idea of our own about that stuff, and because we haven't let anyone know about it until now, we're going to give this idea a soft veto.
As an aside, if I recall correctly, people in positions of power giving "soft vetos" to ideas, despite their support, seems to be something that was recently blamed for the lack of things getting done on this site, and a certain other somebody brought up how that isn't the only problem, there are other factors. Maybe there's some credibility to this.
But getting to the point, Hyoza, if you are very much against this (the peaches idea, since that's really the only thing that is left to be discussed here) then please say so, and slap a soft veto on it. Because at this point its a few people talking in circles.
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Post by Hyoza on May 25, 2015 18:56:42 GMT
Not even against it, Vennel, just don't see why it's relevant now. She's gonna have the rest of the gear for ages if she works towards it.
What we want to foster is characters building their legends -through RP- rather than being handed legendary status, which is pretty hollow if it isn't earned through actions. This is not a position that has ever existed and canon, and both myself and Rev felt it would be best to have its establishment chronicled, like the founding of Avalon, f'rexample.
We're in no way applying a soft veto - we are, like the rest of you, voicing our opinions. We're not categorically saying this cannot happen, because under the current system (and even the one I am currently proposing), we DO NOT have that power.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on May 25, 2015 19:14:40 GMT
I've said as much in the cbox, but I dislike it for the same reasons as Hyoza. There's no canon precedent for the role. I like the character idea, but I do not believe there is any reason for this to be extended as far as it is (and I will not put it in the lore page, because it is not canon nor 'influential' on the formation of the empire).
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Post by Vennel on May 25, 2015 19:16:27 GMT
The problem with "building legends" and "building lore" through RP, is that isnt what a legend is. A legend is something that is unvarifiably true or false. It's a story that's handed down over generations and is likely more fiction than fact. When someone "builds" their legend in RP, that ceases to be a legend. It then becomes simply a current event, or a saga.
Though that's the thing with legends. They're stories at best. Some may have never heard of them, others may have been terrified, or invigorated by them, while others may dismiss them without second thought. "Legendary Status" is not altogether a bad thing, so long as the implications of that legend do no cross over into the as physical benefits to the character. And it's if and when they do that they need to be considered carefully.
In the case of Zuni, where it is proposed that she have the peaches, a mythical/legendary item to distribute, and since it is outside of the established lore (which I'll get to in a bit), it understandably merits discussion and consideration. However, as I guess is being made clear (?) this thread is more of laying the ground work for a future implementation.
As it stands the Saiyan culture is virtually non existent. Any lore we know about have been in the small glimpses in non canon sources, or dragon ball minus, of what saiyan life and culture is about, we have almost nothing to go on. But we do have something and I think that's what interests people. Their appetites for a lore has been whet, they have a legend, an uplifting story to cling to for hope, a goal to aspire to. And that seems about it. Because the reaction taken by yourself and Rev, seemed very- well, not positive, to put it bluntly. Your comments weren't so much condemning Zuni's character, but did seem to be against the character being a legendary figure from old legends, that she already existed in such capacity.
And what message that made to me, and maybe others, was that the staff want to discourage initiative to fill the site's lore/canon with things after the fact. And that if it isn't already spelled out by akira toriyama, then it isn't something that exists, or it shouldn't exist. And that only the staff are allowed to make any contributions to what can or will be done with the site's canon, even though if what they had done was sufficient, people would feel there were gaping holes in it as is. I understand the desire to have people work towards things, but one doesn't just work towards being a legend. Because by the time you hit a status or a power level or a position of power that would be worthy as a Legend to be looked back upon, you're surrounded by equally legendary figures, and thats not what a legend is made of. In fact, such a legend, if told in the far flung future would likely sound like "Okay, so a lot of really powerful ass holes went around shooting lasers at each other and generally making life miserable for the little people."
As for the lack of power to implement it, how is that so? If the site currently runs under a democracy, and people vote for this, and it's approved. Then you can add a rank like this in the ranks (lords/tutors) [or whatever that thread is called] thread, as a rank under planet Vegeta. It's not as though because you're calling for a restructuring of the democratic system, the current system stops working. Unless that's a side effect to the thread you've called? In which case I may have to change my opinion on the proposal.
@zucc, very well then, I don't think anyone is calling for it to be mentioned officially as a lore thing, but that should mean that absolutely anything that happens in this site should never be recorded in any sort of time line, because it's not canon.
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
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Post by Zucceta on May 25, 2015 19:20:28 GMT
The problem with "building legends" and "building lore" through RP, is that isnt what a legend is. A legend is something that is unvarifiably true or false. It's a story that's handed down over generations and is likely more fiction than fact. When someone "builds" their legend in RP, that ceases to be a legend. It then becomes simply a current event, or a saga. Though that's the thing with legends. They're stories at best. Some may have never heard of them, others may have been terrified, or invigorated by them, while others may dismiss them without second thought. "Legendary Status" is not altogether a bad thing, so long as the implications of that legend do no cross over into the as physical benefits to the character. And it's if and when they do that they need to be considered carefully. The character should -not- be a legendary figure with no canon precedence. The super saiyan is one thing, a legend with arguably canonical preference we can use as a frameworkThis is another. You drew comparison to the Super Saiyan in your character app, except we have nothing to go on from the source material; no precedence for this character model within saiyan folklore. Saiyans may not have a 'culture' that is obvious to you, but that is no excuse to just make something out of the blue. It doesn't even necessarily fit what their demon figure would be like (in my opinion, the saiyan devil would actually be something akin to a Frieza-like figure; a figure who can destroy them without even trying).
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