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Post by Wyntre Cold on Jan 23, 2015 7:25:27 GMT
That would make it less fun for both sides. No one would want to be no where near anyone else in terms of power, that's why they're putting in the catching up system.
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 23, 2015 13:57:41 GMT
I am only in partial agreement with Pipa. I do believe that those who start off weak should end up the strongest, but only by a couple more steps.
I think, if everyone reaches the 500k PL, everyone should be capable of almost equal fighting. However, those that do have a definite early game advantage, such as Arcosians should have a slightly harder time with having their end modifier be equal to those whose start multiplier was pretty much void.
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Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
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Post by Pipa on Jan 23, 2015 16:37:05 GMT
The true point that I am trying to make, without giving it away up front to draw out further critical thinking... is that moon ball and the Oozaru rebalance veto was not based upon sound reasonings.
No such massive power gap exists at the end of the game for Arcosian's. To say that a saiyan must be vulnerable through tier one, is to say that at the end they should get something for their struggle. No such reward exists because of the 80% rule, so making it impossible to access a transformation other than to administrative whim is not a sound logic. A three technique throw away, which at this early in the game is a big deal... is more than enough to justify getting access to Oozaru.
As Tak has said not being able to be near someone else of equal base power level is not fun for either party. As it is in the above game, it should be in the below game. All these massive gaps between people of an equal base at the beggining is doing is narrrowing the pool of who you can actual interact with in a combat enviroment.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jan 24, 2015 4:02:07 GMT
Ah... I remember back on Resurrection when I played a human character... Just started out and I came across one of the more powerful players on the site: A majin named Kazama. That was a fun battle, even if I lost horrendously! Zucceta, Zasho! You remember Kazama? Whatever happened with him? Getting back to this real quick, let me pose this question to you: "When is there a fair fight?" Plan not the buffing of oneself continuously or else you'll get no where! Plan how to get ahead. Get a strong fighter on your side and finish the job yourself, once the enemy's worn down, or wear the enemy down yourself so your friend can get in there and kick the crap of them... Or get righteously back-stabbed. May not be entirely on topic, but I feel that should be an available mindset for everyone.
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Post by President Bao on Jan 26, 2015 7:55:05 GMT
First up, remember to present/discuss in a civil manner, nothing to problematic so far but it has the potential to head that way so lets just remember this is a friendly and open discussion. ---- As for the topic itself; Not so long ago you guys were complaining human's ending multiplier was much too high... XD As for Arcosians, I'm inclined to agree that their advantages and disadvantages aren't equal. They are balanced with a heavy early game bias yet their mechfication means they skirt around the late game compensation that's meant to come with it (still being a little worse off than a 'proper' android, but not by much).... having said that though, it was done to try and make a more satisfying player experience and more interesting plot development, so for myself at least I'm not too fixated on the issue. My site patch suggestions gave them more of a trade-off and gave them reason to hold back their full power, keeping trade offs fair but still satisfying is a tricky line to walk. (Your comparison between Emer and Wyntre is a little odd though since you are comparing the two most extreme ends of the spectrum there : P )The true point that I am trying to make, without giving it away up front to draw out further critical thinking... is that moon ball and the Oozaru rebalance veto was not based upon sound reasonings. No such massive power gap exists at the end of the game for Arcosian's. To say that a saiyan must be vulnerable through tier one, is to say that at the end they should get something for their struggle. No such reward exists because of the 80% rule, so making it impossible to access a transformation other than to administrative whim is not a sound logic. A three technique throw away, which at this early in the game is a big deal... is more than enough to justify getting access to Oozaru. As Tak has said not being able to be near someone else of equal base power level is not fun for either party. As it is in the above game, it should be in the below game. All these massive gaps between people of an equal base at the beggining is doing is narrrowing the pool of who you can actual interact with in a combat enviroment. Pipa, you are forgetting that there are more points on the path than just 'very beginning' and 'very end'. You yourself did up that chart about the racial progression, you know that saiyans are ahead of the bell curve (even when you outright excluded transformations like oozaru). If I had the time I'd give some better data visualisation of how everything fits into place (If you want and have the time, we could actually work on that together a bit Pipa, you've demonstrated an interest before so the offer is there if you're keen for some thrilling data-entry). I'm not entirely sure what veto is being referred to, but the arguments presented in the quote above are based on outdated info, the moon being missing was indeed an issue (though it's priority was bumped down due to the fact we only had only two active saiyans up until recently and there was more focus on social interaction than saga conflict), the previous community decision on the matter was actually that during saga events and such people could put up a vote to have one present and it would be decided that way (no body put up such votes, therefore no moons came). but since we now actually have enough people/interest to make it relevant we have a system properly in place - we have the weekly cycle (it's been in development a long time, it was an unposted site patch element), and was also based on feedback from the prior suggestion of following the real world moon cycle, which people weren't too keen on it being so short, (reaffirming the weekly setup concept). (We are currently in the testing and evaluation phase of the iterative development cycle, for moon/event triggered forms, so I will admit it's very dangerous to go further changing the same element while things are still unsettled and the repercussions are not yet measured though. They may be too OP, they may be not OP enough, further observation required ) ----- If you want a rough indicator of the balance here - Saiyans early game are overall meant to be slightly below the curve during early game. Their oozaru is available 1/4th of the time, at a x10 multiplier that means 'overall effectiveness' was determined at x2.5, as you noted a x3ish starter range is fairly average.*
To give an alternate comparison, Humans have a x3 but can only use it after being hurt, overall this could be argued to reduce it's overall effectiveness to 2/3rds (or 4/5ths if you like, it's debatable currently given freeform injury), meaning in relative terms they are a x2 (or x2.4) at the beginning. you may notice this aligns with Alien A having a less restricted x2 (which as part of their racial customisation could be chosen to be increased to x3)
> Alien C has a x12 /4 = x3 rough beginner balance
> Demons have a x8 /4 = x2 (but they have a x3 default, so 3 + 2 = x5 they also have a x4 one-use special so divide by 5 = 0.8 so roughly their early game advantage can be considered in the realm of x6)
> Arcosians demerit is not an inaccessibility but rather a disincentive. I'd still consider them a x9 at the very least. Meaning they have roughly a three-times advantage in the early game as part of their intended superiority.
> Namekians, to bring in another comparison point, are a straight x4
> Androids are estimated at about a x1.5 with overdrive early game, but as it goes on the cost becomes more negligible to you[increasing accessibility] meaning about a x2 effective bonus, and that advantage is added to their base modifiers (meaning for example their x16 becomes essentially a x18 in overall balance, etc.)
*(Moon ball gives 100% accessibility x10, making saiyans the strongest starter on the site bar none. I can't say that I agree that three techs[which already provide a separate bonus], is a particularly fair trade-off to every other race on the site) --- (18) [tracking for myself so I don't miss any threads]
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