Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 12, 2015 21:43:23 GMT
Hey folks. It's come to my attention there isn't anything definitive regarding the Moon Ball technique. It seems like most people were leaning towards it being a king or master-taught technique, but given a) I don't think that is very fair and b) our chosen Saiya-jin monarch is now approaching the super saiyan bridge, I believe the IC relevancy of him creating such a technique for Oozaru would be long gone.
So! Here is what I stipulate for any saiya-jin or hybrid who wants to transform into the Oozaru at will, or help his comrade's thus:
Moon Ball is a technique that can be created once a saiyan has both a) mastered the weakness of his tail (10k PL requirement) and b) mastered his mind in the Oozaru state (20k PL req(?)). It would only take one slot to make, but requires these two prequisites - and the ball itself would take a fuckload of energy to make, as witnessed by Vegeta using the technique in the manga, reducing your base PL to %80 (and this would then be the numbered multiplied by 10x). This would not apply to other saiyans who might benefit from using the false moon, whether friend or foe.
Thoughts?
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Pipa
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Post by Pipa on Jan 12, 2015 22:02:17 GMT
I think the biggest issue is that from what I can tell saiyans aren't supposed to shine bright until ssj. However, it would be great to actually see some Oozaru and Makyo stars on the table.
I'd say a good limiter would be that Oozaru can only use ki blast/ standard attacks in the form. After getting Oozaru control, allow them to buy (or rebuy) more offensive techs that can only be used in Oozaru. The more you invest into the early gratification, the more techs you'll have to use on it that won't be relevant in later arts of the game.
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Zasho Hirugetsu
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Post by Zasho Hirugetsu on Jan 12, 2015 23:22:46 GMT
I do like the idea of Oozaru-only techniques, and I do approve of the moon-ball!
Perhaps it could give a lower modifier than an actual full moon, though?
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Ora
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Post by Ora on Jan 12, 2015 23:39:24 GMT
That could be somethin' nice. Moon Ball is a definite and techniques being something as well. Wouldn't they be along the lines of, say,
Chou Makouhou or something similar?
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 13, 2015 0:07:47 GMT
Chou Makouho would be damn cool. Well I feel like I'm against Ooza-only techniques, I'm not that against it. Maybe Oozaru mastery could grant 1 free Oozaru-version of an existing technique (not including support techniques like flight or sense, mind), and any more would have to be 'paid' for?
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Ora
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Post by Ora on Jan 13, 2015 0:53:02 GMT
That, I haven't any trouble with. I like that.
Ie: Lets say, Toma enters a Oozaru state and uses an Oozaru version of Galick Cannon fired from the maw.
I presume that's what you are getting at?
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 13, 2015 1:07:05 GMT
What I'm suggesting is that you get one free Oozaru tech, be it a version of an existing tech you know or a new-one only to be used in the form.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jan 13, 2015 7:13:37 GMT
So what your saying is, using an IC example that happened in the tournament with myself, I use my UP2 Super Tomahawk Slasher in the Oozaru State and it's stronger than just the UP2, like at a MP3 level, or are you just saying just having that as an actual ability being made available to the Oozaru form?
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 13, 2015 10:16:11 GMT
It would just be made available to Oozaru. What is being suggested by some is that offensive techniques would not be made available to Oozaru form initially and would have to be 're-purchased' just for the form.
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Post by President Bao on Jan 21, 2015 11:35:30 GMT
Okay, so here is that explanation I mentioned While things are based on Rensou's reworked racial transformations at face value, there have actually been some significant shifts/embellishments in the balance and gameplay of given races. This has come from my own knowledge as a graduated games designer, and an interest in applying more strongly integrated 'playstyles' for each race (less superficial difference and more meaningful *gameplay* differences). One example of this is early game saiyans. Early game is actually a saiyan's stage of greatest vulnerability(a high risk-reward stage of their life), since they are fairly well off through the rest of the game. You are certainly right, they have a strong trans but it's accessibility is restricted, this is entirely on purpose and a major factor in their design. > Res saiyans had a x5 trans and could decide a moon was around whenever they felt like it. The gameplay this brought with it was a simple power up, used for when a saiyan felt like being stronger.
> Souls saiyans are an event driven opportunist, the full moon representing an inversion of their early game weakness. Saiyans are intended to be the rough and tumble underdog, who is most suited to picking fights with people equal or stronger than themselves - basically masochist brawlers, they live for 'the challenge' and thrive from a beating, and so are rewarded for following this playstyle, while punished for deviating. Oozaru is gratification tool, but also a bit of a sneaky manipulation. The gratification comes in the form of giving saiyans that limited time of being the top dog, they have a multiplier which matches even arcosians because, when oozaru time comes, they are meant to be every bit the king kong of the playground, empowered and bold. The manipulation comes in to that fact that, true to their intended playstyle, this encourages them to pick fights with people stronger than themselves, people who will no doubt seek to take their revenge during the non-moon periods. ---- ^the moon ball, in light of this playstyle, is a major buff and power shift. It's a 'king maker', the one who holds this power is a natural leader among the community. Therefore the initial set up was to give this to the saiyan king, since they would naturally represent all saiyans in that early part of the game and provide a good catalyst for that opening conflict with the conference. Later game, such as the phase we are entering now or when Vegeta gets added as a planet, the moon ball would also become available to one or two other possible roles - A saiyan general, essentially the military leader subbordinate to the King. This would either be an organic development (saiyan king teaches it to him in RP) or a manufactured one. This one was always a little iffy for me, I've been playing it by ear and since we haven't had a large saiyan population it hasn't been super relevant. And the other one who would get access to the moon ball special for teaching, would be the saiyan rebellion leader, some form of saiyan who stands in counterpoint to the king. With our current set up, the tables are somewhat turned - the one interested in being king is an anti-saiyan, meaning the 'rebel' is likely to be a purist of the old ways. --- Anyway, gotta head out for the night, but certainly interested to hear responses and hopefully have shared a bit of insight into the design philosophy of Wod:Souls development
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 21, 2015 13:08:05 GMT
I just want to get it implemented. We already have someone capable of becoming a Super Saiyan. I want the Moon Ball tech accessible.
I also believe that trying to integrate playstyles in accordance to traditional gameplay design into a narrative-driven roleplay game is a fallacy - each player will create their own 'play-style' through their character's descriptions and technique choices, rather than in an MMO where you would pick a race and class which would teach you a set number of techniques. YES, races do operate similarly to classes in that they would give you 'buffs' - but our combat is mostly free-form, informed by a power level system.
If the intent was to have Moon Ball teachable, then tutors should have been set up long before now, even if it was necessary to have them be NPCs for a while.
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Post by President Bao on Jan 25, 2015 6:05:07 GMT
We did have tutors Zuc the saiyan king role has had 3 people claim it over the duration of this site (athren being the fourth to show interest) It just doesn't have one currently cause no body was interested in it and the prior claimant had left. (having just checked, I do see that the masters page wasn't updated to list it, clarifying some confusion I had over this all. Will need to fix that) It's no different to the other roles. We don't use NPCs here, it's entirely player driven, which I think is a good thing. As noted in my previous post, intent was to have it as the rallying banner for the saiyan leader(in the same way the power unlocks or other specials are limited, the moon ball is also meant to be, it's what it's been balanced for). If you want that rallying point to be you or someone you are team-mates with, then just claim the role and it's yours (Funnily enough, I remember when our roles were reversed in this conversation, where I was a member arguing in a thread that there should be more master/unlocker type roles for villains to equal out the ones for the good guys, and you saying that it was all player driven and if I want such then I should just make the character myself and take the role ) --- Since we are on the topic of moon ball's, I do have a couple of suggestion/discussion elements: > Should we treat the moon ball much like a regular attack, in that you charge it and it has a pl. If someone blasts it with a pl exceeding it's current value, the ball will be destroyed. The creator of the moon ball then has a choice, unleash it quickly at lesser strength, or invest more energy to ensure it lasts.
> The other was the question that perhaps a moon ball is instant-saga, meaning if it's advantage is used you are agreeing that people could kill (or remove your tail) to stop you, a trade off for the massive power boost it gives.(This would tie into saiyans already saga-based zenkai). ----
And a narrative-driven roleplay game is already filled to the brim with traditional gameplay design You give yourself too little credit. Players can of course create their own playstyle using their techniques and such, that does not in any way preclude their race having a well designed inherent playstyle, nor does it interfere with the freeform combat system. Creating interesting races with cool abilities which contribute towards a compelling play model is a great thing. When people chose their race, they do so because in the show, the presented playstyle was appealing to them. As you noted, it's not like the common MMO formula where you have pre-defined techniques(which is largely a choice or constraint of the medium), it's instead a selection of special abilities and transformations which provide a basis to customise your own attacks and narrative personality on. --- (8) [just tracking for my own sanity, so I don't miss any threads]
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 25, 2015 8:21:41 GMT
I believe that the Moon Ball can be destroyed. However, while non-canon, I recall Turles using it to make Gohan transform, then destroying it before he does; so maybe, even once destroyed, the transformation should last, say, 3-5 turns afterwards. Yeah, I would suggest that, if you are using any transformation during a serious fight, it should be a death-enabled or saga duel. Also, I recall Vegeta saying that saiyans prefer using natural planetary bodies due to the effort it takes to create a Moon Ball. I feel that this could perhaps mean one or two things mechanically; either a lower (say, 7x) multiplier or you have to charge it a couple of turns.
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