|
Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Dec 31, 2014 4:09:04 GMT
Alright, so this is going in conjunction with what has happened in the thread with Orion and Koramund, a Death Enabled thread. The reason for this being brought up is because the ruling isn't very clear and practical to some people. So I'll label the sides now, then the two or more players of each side can make their case.
Side 1) Koramund gets the absorption and 33% of Orion's power level, regardless of it being a 'destined' type needing to be absorbed. The reason for this is that, in the canon, Cell gained portions of power not just from the androids and people he absorbed, but as well as Piccolo's arm, which served to rejuvenate or strengthen his power. Koramund is the representative of this side and will be the first to plead the case
Side 2) Koramund doesn't get the absorption because Orion was not the 'Destined' type that Koramund needs to absorb to get on the road to being Perfect form. Our own President Bao and Orion will be representing this case, particularly President Bao, as he was the designer of this and has stated his point in the Cbox on this matter.
Gentlemen, keep it clean. Keep it reasonable. We're discussing a ruling clarification that'll change this race's mechanics partially.
|
|
|
Post by President Bao on Dec 31, 2014 6:44:01 GMT
*shrug* Originally on resurrection Bio-androids got the pl every absorption(a massive boost which while very cool kinda promoted negative player behaviour, 'begging'/ meta-gamed deals and a number of arguments here and there), towards the end it got changed so that they only got the pl for their two (what I've come to dub) 'destined' absorptions, that is the ones required to achieve semi-perfect and perfect forms, which specifically required you absorb an android. We kinda followed where that left off, except with an additional bonus now - bio-androids get an early game transformation called bio-metabolise, based of the wicked power up cell displayed before moping the floor with piccolo and 17(and a weaker version earlier when he first met piccolo). The idea being that the hunting down of people to digest their bio-extract - as Cell called it - powers up this form and thus that (along with their base pl gains from just having done threads over time) is why he 'became stronger'. It gives people in imperfect form a reason to fight and absorb others without it actually effecting base pl. ----- I often like to think of our game mechanics in terms of canon, cause if you can explain a canon event through our game mechanics(while still being balanced) then we know we're doing well eg. 'Absorbing all those towns of people made cell stronger' -> Each town or whatever was a training thread which player 'Cell' got graded for, increasing his base strength. He managed to unlock the bio-metabolise before really being on the radar, giving him a x3 transformation. When he attacked fellow player 'piccolo', his intention was to absorb him, knowing this would bump his bio-metabolise up to full(x8), bringing him closer to his goal of achieving semi-perfect form (his target - player 17, one of the strongest androids on the site and who he had already developed a common back story with, infact he'd made himself linked to most of the main characters for that extra personal touch as a plot-hook). Piccolo and Cell had a thread together, but thanks to his recent fusion Pic held the advantage (though they played along with each other for an awesome battle and a bit of exposition), In-character Cell didn't know this though untill the battle had begun. Ultimately Cell made his escape, he may have lost the battle but he wouldn't lose the war. Cell was a driven player, after his defeat he then lay low, doing more solo training threads (though he did have a battle with player Krillin which was both amusing and badass, it was non-DE though), and playing it safe decided to use the technique slots earned from his 'town attacking' threads to bump his metabolise up to full, in preparation for his gambit. He knew a saga thread would be coming soon enough. Piccolo and 17 commenced a Saga battle when the androids managed to corner the Z fighters at Kame house, and Cell made his move(player 17 didn't acctually realise how strong cell had become going into the saga, but it was still admittedly very cool). If he managed to succeed he'd achieve his semi-perfect form, as well as absorbing 33% pl of one of the strongest other players on the site, making him the new Primary Saga villian like he was aiming for. It's also models canon behaviour to OOC mechanics, such as why he did *not* absorb piccolo or even any of the others, he was about to obtain semi-perfect form, absorbing random people only boosts bio-metabolise which was about to become redundant, so piccolo literally was ' of no value to him anymore'. (Same reason he also didn't try to absorb anyone except 18 once he reached semi.) ---- Honestly, I haven't actually formed an opinion on which way is better or not, but I guess for those interested that is some of the justification for how it came to be what it currently is. One thing which hasn't really been expressly covered though is this destined transformations being pre-set or not, so that's another thing to bring up on this topic. As I mentioned above, on the predecessor to this place, it was required to be an android. When I made my own character, I made a proposal about my one needing a bio-android, and at some later point an arcosian came into it as my target for first form(I needed many races, but the rest were just RP flavour and were done is solo threads as npcs). I therefore personally think we shouldn't lock people in to just 'android' being their target, and although the targets death is required they should probably be allowed to flavour it however they like rather than just being 'eating them'. I'm kinda thinking that maybe the way we handle these 'destined' absorptions is to have the bio select upon creation one (or maybe a few) 'target race(s)', and these will be the ones they specifically need to absorb to reach their semi and perfect forms... Eg. Cell needed to absorb those two Androids(17 and 18), Super 13 similarly needed android components(14 and 15). something like Bio-Broly could be stated to have needed Saiyan(Broly). Hirudegarn needed to kill the Konatsians(Tapion and Minota).
|
|
Koramund
Archived
PL: 121,168
Bio Metabolize(x3)
Zeni: 2,003
Shoki: 7,708
Tag: @koramund
OOC Name: Saiyan, Namekian, Human
Posts: 694
|
Post by Koramund on Dec 31, 2014 14:42:31 GMT
I think absorption should simply be reworded to what I have been told, plus the transformation I think should have slightly warped text. First, with Absorption when he ate civilians and he was powering up bis "Prelude to Final form"/"Bio-metabolise, but when he straight up drank Piccolo's arm he gain a small strength boost, but not nearly as much as he would have wanted. So I think a new way absorption could be wrote is as follows:
Absorption: Spend 3 turns absorbing a foe, flavored any way the Bio-Android wants, to gain 33% PL. This foe must be within 80% PL or stronger then the Bio-android's base power to gain the PL. When absorbing for transformation, PL does not matter. Absorbing any PC character maxes out Bio-Metabolisem
That way, it is encouraging Bio-Androids to take a risk and try to consume people early, but it also makes some sense. Anything weaker would not have enough power to even be useful, but when Semi-Cell completely outmatched Android 18, he still gained power by eating her since she was destined. But, other wise I really don't have anything else I can use, Cell really only used absorption on screen less then 10 times.
"The tail will then extract all of the organic matter of the victim, leaving the clothing behind. The process appears quite agonizing for the victim. According to Cell, this is how he feeds, as he often licks his lips before consuming a large population or an android. He also states that the more he eats, the hungrier and stronger he becomes. While this form of absorption is unusable on mechanical beings and is much less versatile in comparison to Majin Buu's absorption technique, Cell's absorption via stabbing the victim with his tail is the only form of absorption used in the series that makes the victim completely unable to be freed, due to the victim being broken down into genetic material and then integrated directly into Cell's body."
"In addition to the above variation, Cell has a second method of absorption in which he will absorb a person whole. Cell will open up the pointed end of his stinger, and it will become a giant sucker. Cell will bring the sucker down on the person, and the sucker will suck them through Cell's tail into his body. The person will then be held unconscious in Cell's body. This method was designed for Android 17 and Android 18, who, due to not being completely organic (as they were human before Dr. Gero modified them), had to be absorbed whole. This is Cell's preferred method, as it gives him full power, and is the only way for him to advance to his Semi-Perfect and Perfect forms, respectively attained by absorbing one and both of the cyborgs."
However with this, I think absorption should have 2 versions: The base version is lowered down to 25/20%, and it still gives the X8 modifier, but he can use the Whole absorption for 50% PL, but it can only be done on the specific race(s) chosen, and if in a DE or Saga, they can choose to instead of dying, barf up the android, like how Gohan kicked Cell, but then Cell transformed after he was obliterated. But these are what I think, and I don't really have much else to say.
|
|
Koramund
Archived
PL: 121,168
Bio Metabolize(x3)
Zeni: 2,003
Shoki: 7,708
Tag: @koramund
OOC Name: Saiyan, Namekian, Human
Posts: 694
|
Post by Koramund on Jan 4, 2015 22:38:43 GMT
Sorry for double posting, but this conversation has been dead for about 5 days)
Lets give a example: Lets say somehow I won a fight against person A who has 300,000 PL, and absorbed him, but only have 5K PL. I would gain 99,000 PL from that, however since I am not at 130K at the end, I get nothing but a x8 transformation.
However, If I did the Same exact thing at 50K Power level, I would hit that magic number, and transform, gaining a perm transformation.
That is my issue, the Destined absorption if it does not happen at that perfect time gives no advantage to a player, which would emphasize a person meta-gaming and only absorbing PCs who would give them a boost, or waiting a very long time until they could eat a baby and then transform. There is little between because from my example with Orion, I would gain about 8.6K PL, and this is telling me I can only get that PL if I am around 121,400 PL! That was 100,000 more PL then I had when I ate Orion (around) and this is saying to me "If you did it later you would have gotten a better reward! Take a consolation prize." After I gain that transformation, there is NO reward for eating someone, unless they are within a very small margin, and you need a Scouter or Ki sense to even know what the power level is (and Scouters can't sense the large power levels we see towards the end, at the Freiza saga they would just explode if you LOOKED at the wrong guy). Finally, DE threads where you just BE there are highly risky, I can't name a single other race that is less risky for their Tier 2 transformation. Finally, if you if you want your Tier 4 (Perfect), and you do not absorb the target in that small PL range I said before, You gain nothing because the Bio-meta would be weaker then your current transformation!
Also, after the first transformation, Cell did not need to eat as much people because he was able to hold his own, but then Vegeta went basaltic on him, so he needed to absorb 16 quickly or get murdered.
|
|
|
Post by President Bao on Jan 5, 2015 11:56:21 GMT
Ha, well since no one else has commented, I'll act as opposition leader in this debate; See, but your example is the kind of shady behaviour I mentioned in the first post I made . I can't think of a legitimate way you would actually be able to absorb someone substantially above your pl like that, not unless you meta-gamed to get it.... which is not the sort of behaviour we want to encourage. Right now at 22,583 pl, absorption has given you a 112,915pl boost, because it upgrades your bio-metabolise to a x8. I wouldn't call that small or insignificant reward. You could indeed have waited to absorb someone later on... but look at what doing it now has opened for you, advantages and options that you would not otherwise have if you chose to wait. Also you misunderstand, you can't use the 33% to reach semi or perfect forms requirement, you must already have the listed base pl in your possession and then absorb after that. The 33% is a bonus given to you as a reward for picking a strong target when attaining your semi-perfect and perfect forms, because these forms are special. (side question... 50k?) Basically, absorbing people early is eating them, absorbing your destined target at the required pl is fusing with them, you can even see with cell how the process was different for both types (one involving draining the biological material with his needle tail, while his 'destined absorption' involved engulfing the androids whole.) Oh, and you don't keep bio-metabolise after you gain semi-perfect, so I'm a little confused by the 'you gain nothing because the bio-meta would be weaker' comment. --- Also, have run out of time tonight, but something from your previous post I also wanted to question (more a nitpick then a relevant part of this topic) - you said drinking Piccolo's arm made Cell stronger but I don't recall this being indicated as the case. He certainly declared his intent to absorb piccolo completely to increase his power, and piccolo appeared to be weakened by losing his arm(revealed later to be deception), but I genuinely don't remember any strength benefit coming from the arm-snack... I don't have the time now that I'm back at work to dig around for sources so if you have one at hand it would certainly help me out
|
|
Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
|
Post by Pipa on Jan 5, 2015 22:50:37 GMT
Bio-meta should either be a transform mechanic that solely deals in increasing the early game trans modifier OR be removed as a transform and become a racial mechanic and grant PL per absorb.
It should be about the same as a zenkai if it is going to provide PL (grade boost rather than a % of someones PL from what I understand), and before it is argued that it would ruin the concept of defeating a stronger opponent- fighting a superior opponent already grants a higher grade I am pretty sure, so that would sweeten the deal. This would provide a much needed cap to the gain that can be had, and make it comparable to another ability.
While some might say that it isn't realistic, from a game mechanic perspective- these current PL gains are base PL, each PL taken represents a word or two on average. If you are getting 100,000 base PL from an absorb, that is like gaining all of the time Athren put into writing in an instant. It is true a trans modifier can provide potentially higher boosts, but it isn't broken because most every race is getting a time to shine or they at least stay competitive throughought.
Also a x8 trans +pl seems excessive. Considering the race has 3 abilities of other races, and one of the better late game transformation (for "villain" races anyways), I think it is asking for too much. I think the transform boost is the best option, as Bio-androids already have access to a DE power level gain move (zenkai). I don't even like the 33% boost for the destined transforms, fractions of base PL are simply to high a reward in my book.
|
|
jinzon
Rising Soul
PL: 61,129
Bio-Metabolize (x3)
Zeni: 3,403
Tag: @jinzon
OOC Name: Android, Saiyan, Human
Posts: 153
|
Post by jinzon on Jan 6, 2015 20:53:43 GMT
Bio-Meta is alittle hard for me to understand at times. I would simply work it to be similar to overdrive from Android, but give it the need to absorb npc/pc to recover after use and to boost it's multiplyer.
But since I play a bio-android I agree with the ' destined ' absorption theory. But leave it up to the player to choose from the races the bio android is built from. in my case I have, human, saiyan and android. So a destined for the two absorption trans, could be one pc/npc from those three or combination of. human/android, android/saiyan, saiyan/human. As for the pl gains outside of that, it gets messy. so much gained from a small margin.
|
|
|
Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jan 7, 2015 1:43:36 GMT
Do we wish to continue discussion or do we want to head towards the voting?
|
|
Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
|
Post by Pipa on Jan 7, 2015 1:44:41 GMT
I vote... for voting
|
|
Zefonse
Newcomer
PL: 13,052; Bio-Metabolise (x3 current): (Not Available yet) Items: Sword, 1-Use space pod Zeni: 500
Tag: @zefonse
OOC Name: Saiyan, Namekian, Human
Posts: 40
|
Post by Zefonse on Jan 14, 2015 22:59:02 GMT
With how absorbing works right now for a bio-android, makes it very hard for a player to gain enough power to even survive, understandable with how canon works -Cell was no more powerful than Freiza brute form- But with how it used for the role play aspects really hinders the player, and in fact makes it virtually impossible to make use of it.
"When absorbing for their two major transformations, they may take 33% of their targets base pl and add it to their own. Absorbing a player character will fill Bio-Metabolize to x8 immediately! "
The first issue with the two destined targets I keep hearing about, how would a player make use of this? Since 17 and 18 were designed to help cell reach perfect form, which means making two other characters or ask someone to make these chars, and build a whole story arc of trying to eat them just to get PL and 33% at that. I suggest, and I won't make a poll till it is called for. To have the the aborning aspects a minor rework, and still give a feeling of tactic over abusing it.
When absorbing allow it to take 5-10% of a targets power level early. This gives a player a chance to be risky in DE threads. And gives them a nice little reward in doing so. Another way this can be used in training threads basing it off canon, when cell went around absorbing whole cities, should give them a minor boost of power level as well maybe factor it like a x10 grav chamber thread. And for the transformation to give them a more risk and reward allow a tad more than 33% maybe around 45% of the two people for the transformation. Since I believe those trans are prem, and give the player a major boost. But also gives the player a chance to be more risky with there chars, allowing one to be smart with it. Since it would give them a better use of there traits than just take in traits of other races. And allow them to keep on par with weaker races even for a tad bit. So sound powerful early, but in the end everything has a apex, maybe once the trans has been reached, the skill takes a major nerf instead.
|
|
|
Post by Wyntre Cold on Jan 15, 2015 0:12:30 GMT
I think we've you've done some good discussing here. How about we vote?
|
|
Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
|
Post by Pipa on Jan 16, 2015 2:25:49 GMT
I hate to seem always so contrary Zef, but I disagree. There are other races with very little to start with as far as transformations go.
Saiyans, Dragon Clan Namekians, hybrids, (and about half the time androids)- All these have trigger abilities they can't always tap, that leaves plenty of fish in the sea out there to absorb.
A Bio-Android should be like a scavenger on the side lines of sagas for much of his play. If in a big battle a bunch of fighters have fallen out to try to save themselves, the bio android might be able to snuff them out easily. Another thing being totally discounted is that you don't have to play alone. A crony bio android with a x3 can be the backup for a stronger ally who in turn helps feed their friend, who then can become a major threat with a x8 at this level of play.
I have issue with the % of some guys base overall because those numbers can get out of hand if a tricksy android can get it somehow. Unlikely that it will happen, but the fact that it could is disturbing to my game balance senses.
|
|
Zefonse
Newcomer
PL: 13,052; Bio-Metabolise (x3 current): (Not Available yet) Items: Sword, 1-Use space pod Zeni: 500
Tag: @zefonse
OOC Name: Saiyan, Namekian, Human
Posts: 40
|
Post by Zefonse on Jan 16, 2015 2:52:29 GMT
@ pipa my deal was to suggest to enchance one of there basic traits to help with the starting power level getting a low % helps gives people a reason to use it. I am not to worried about the bio-meta it just the main skill of the bio-androids has the shaft commpared to other races
|
|
jinzon
Rising Soul
PL: 61,129
Bio-Metabolize (x3)
Zeni: 3,403
Tag: @jinzon
OOC Name: Android, Saiyan, Human
Posts: 153
|
Post by jinzon on Jan 16, 2015 2:53:16 GMT
I still think the ' Destined ' absorption could be used. As I pointed out, if you made it based on racial traits then the options aren't limited to making another character to go after. If you have human and saiyan as racial traits, then it should be easy enough to target a character that exsists already of that race to absorb. as long as you gain permission of course and it's a de thread. as for the pl gain from each absorption 35-40% would be the better choice. and as for the bio-meta ability, make it so npc characters can refill it's trigger as well. and as for transformations, bio and regular androids are all permanent as far as I understand.
|
|
|
Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jan 22, 2015 3:51:44 GMT
Zef's got a good idea there, actually. Here's my modification on the matter, straight forward:
The Bio Android needs to go out and absorb things to get stronger, right? That causes danger events for anyone in the area (considering locations currently). The Bio-Android gets a 5% increase to the total thread gain, and a fat ol' notification that the character's going to this location to absorb the populace there, on top of the other miscellaneous modifiers in it. Here's the thing though: It can be halved, to 2.5%, if the android's stopped. In which case, they'll need to look at a powerful source, and I mean a really powerful source that'll force their body to change up to manage that power more effectively. Clearly, this is when the player stuff comes in.
Now comes the tricky part! How're they gonna get more powerful? Well, it's obvious that, upon Cell absorbing Piccolo's arm, that he got stronger! Probably could've handled his own, if Krillin and Trunks didn't show up, considering he absorbed some of Piccolo's power. Going by the mechanic that they need some time to absorb (3 roundabout turns, meaning if there are 4 players, wait for the others to go, post 2 coming in, then everyone else goes, and then post 3). In each turn, the Bio-Android gains 11% of the target's power, up to 33%. This means that the person's got the chance to stop the absorption, but they've lost that amount of power to the Bio-Android. Now, considering it's required of the Bio-Android to absorb a full person, this makes it a bit tedious for them to get up, but this is when we apply Pipa's thought on the matter!
The Bio-Android's a vulture-styled race. Meaning, they're gonna go in after all the fighting, for there's NO need to get in the way of 2 animals fighting each other for life or death. They know that, at the end of the battle, they'll get their share. The first predator never eats the whole thing... Unless it's a snake or some animal with a big mouth and stomach. The vulture will get its turn eventually, and it will be well worth the wait. The Bio-Android hunts a target down, that's weakened from its fight during the thread. Cell made real good use in learning how to Suppress its Ki really well, which is why only Kami, who had plenty of time to Master Ki Sensing, could sense it, until the Bio-Android revealed itself. That or, the Bio-Android could get friendly with someone, who it can assist in the fight... Or backstab them.
Regardless, it gets a meal. In terms of alignment, in general RPING terms, they're anything but any sort of Lawful. Sure, it'll follow its programming from its master, but it'll do it through ANY MEANS necessary. Meaning, they're more inclined to be Chaotic. Especially if they're out on their own.
|
|