Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 2:16:41 GMT
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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 2:19:38 GMT
Personal issues with members should be taken to private messages. This is everything I had a problem with before. Are you really opening up a thread so members can discuss what other members are a "problem" to the site?
C'mon, dude. What the hell ...
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
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Tag: @admin
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Posts: 2,309
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 2:22:09 GMT
Personal issues with members should be taken to private messages. This is everything I had a problem with before. Are you really opening up a thread so members can discuss what other members are a "problem" to the site?
C'mon, dude. What the hell ...
Many, many times people have asked for issues to be resolved publicly. I prefer publicly because it reduces the ability for members OR staff to commit foul play. I don't care if some people find it "aggressive". I don't care that you have a problem with it.
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Nicolas Mclendon
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The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Feb 12, 2017 2:23:45 GMT
Well I didn't really want to chime in but airing issues publicly is better for the sake of transparency in my humble opinion. People have the right to see both sides of something that does affect the community.
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Post by Purika on Feb 12, 2017 2:49:23 GMT
It's not late at night enough for this shit.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 2:50:39 GMT
It's not late at night enough for this shit. Almost 3am for me, pard.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 12, 2017 3:44:54 GMT
I think it's good to have a polite Airing of Grievances thread like this, because I think half of the problems are people get stratified in their own little groups.
I'd like to give my own point of view. I've been on staff for almost two years now, and the level of behavioral issues and plain animosity, griping, and nitpicking we encounter when making standard rulings on anything has never been higher. It wasn't near this bad when we had someone with their own extreme behavioral problems on the staff, and I'm not sure where it's all coming from, but I think a few privileged members of Souls have lost sight of a few things:
a) We're not here to screw anyone over. If we were, we'd be playing in a much different site. In most sites, staff does whatever they want, for instance. Here on Souls, staff heavily regulates the motives and actions of each other, and we have mechanisms in place for legitimate complaints by any player to be heard and acted on. But some people can't let good enough go. We had to spend hours dealing with people accusing us shortening their lifespan by having 'natural biases' or 'soft biases' something ridiculous like that, without any specific instances cited. I'm not sure what the complaint was getting at, or what course of action the revelation of these 'natural biases' were supposed to invoke, but if these are the flimsy sorts of complaints harbored about the staff then I encourage you to go fly to other sites and see what it's like over there.
I'm guessing 'natural biases' means friendship. Is a lot of the staff friendly with one another? Sure. Do I want their characters to do well? You bet. And if you think that cops, judges, government employees, teachers, [insert professional consortium here], don't have similar 'natural biases' or make friends with one another, you are in for a rude awakening down the road of life. Does this mean that we're some kind of nefarious cohort? Nope. We get into more fights about how to operate, what to implement, and how to enforce things than any of yall ever do. I can't count the number of times I've gotten in heated fights with both admins or with many of the mods over x y or z. So we're not some monolithic cabal. We're people that try to run a site, and some of us become friends, that's all.
b) We are running things here, not you. I'm not trying to sound harsh with that, but there's a reason why we threw out the 100% democracy. It was massively dysfunctional, gridlocked, animosity-fueled popularity contest among players and utterly unworkable for staff. More than half of the site creation happened after the democracy was ended, and judging by how our playerbase more than doubled after, I'd say throwing the general vote out the door was the best thing that ever happened here. Staff's role is to generate and maintain the site. This covers everything, from content development to behavioral enforcement. Players are encouraged to contribute to most content development. But they are not encouraged to police behavior, and if a staff member is telling you something about your behavior, you're not on even ground to be able to tell them otherwise.
c) Don't confuse cause and effect. One of the common conspiracy theories I've heard is "omg staff gets huge quality bonuses!". This is simply not true, and it's confusing effect with cause. Most of the staff already had very high quality scores before they were brought onto staff. Naturally, we look for people who know how to write and RP well, since we're going to be asking them to grade other people's writing and RP. And not all staff have high quality scores. But the conspiracy sucks for everybody on the site, because it not only builds distrust from the players towards staff, it makes staff members distrust the people who are peddling the wrong information.
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Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Feb 12, 2017 3:56:57 GMT
Does this mean that we're some kind of nefarious cohort? Nope. We get into more fights about how to operate, what to implement, and how to enforce things than any of yall ever do. I can't count the number of times I've gotten in heated fights with both admins or with many of the mods over x y or z. So we're not some monolithic cabal. We're people that try to run a site, and some of us become friends, that's all. Can confirm, as much as I care about and respect Vi Poi 9 times out of 10 we butt heads over mechanics and rulings. I wholeheartedly agree with everything he posted though, primarily point B. This site is up and running as like THE number one DBZ site and we ALL want it to succeed. The severe lack of trust I've been noticing toward staff is super disheartening. We do everything for the good of the community and the fairness for the site as a whole. We don't always agree with what that is however, in our disagreements we end up finding compromises that help the site grow.
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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 4:05:06 GMT
The problem for me, mostly, is the fact that after being told this site is not for "the people" there's really nothing anyone can say that will ultimately make me believe that the site is at all player driven and has anyone but Rev's best interest in mind. After that bit of information, it hardly seems worth it to me at all. I think that's the biggest stigma for me right now.
Also, I think I was pretty clear in my dissatisfaction with select people, not your staff. Your own shortcomings are no reflection on them. Most of them, I feel, do a great job. And I've stuck up for you guys consistently over and over because I do think you guys do a great job. I think you tend to forget the only reason why I'm not staff anymore is because I left the the site in entirety in September over the shit storm that was brewing back then. That was my choice, and nothing I ever did, said, etc. put that position at risk. I know how it works from both ends. If I could do it all over again I would, I have no regrets. I can wholeheartedly say that my time with you guys proved that MOST of you are indeed fair and will hear people out. MOST of the staff deserves the staff title because they are hard workers.
I just don't think Rev can take a step back and realize the site does not belong to him anymore, regardless of the admin tag in his username. Perhaps at one point it did, and he could do this for him. But he's got 100+ active members, probably the largest DB RP community on the internet, at least that I've ever seen.
If your mindset that the site is only for you, not the people, then what's the point?
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 12, 2017 4:22:15 GMT
The problem for me, mostly, is the fact that after being told this site is not for "the people" there's really nothing anyone can say that will ultimately make me believe that the site is at all player driven and has anyone but Rev's best interest in mind. After that bit of information, it hardly seems worth it to me at all. I think that's the biggest stigma for me right now.
Also, I think I was pretty clear in my dissatisfaction with select people, not your staff. Your own shortcomings are no reflection on them. Most of them, I feel, do a great job. And I've stuck up for you guys consistently over and over because I do think you guys do a great job. I think you tend to forget the only reason why I'm not staff anymore is because I left the the site in entirety in September over the shit storm that was brewing back then. That was my choice, and nothing I ever did, said, etc. put that position at risk. I know how it works from both ends.
I just don't think Rev can take a step back and realize the site does not belong to him anymore, regardless of the admin tag in his username. Perhaps at one point it did, and he could do this for him. But he's got 100+ active members, probably the largest DB RP community on the internet, at least that I've ever seen.
If your mindset that the site is only for you, not the people, then what's the point?
You're kind of twisting words there. Rev built this site for his own enjoyment. He's said that often, to me, to many others and (I'm pretty sure multiple times) on the cbox. That doesn't mean the site's plot isn't player-driven. Or we're not here as staff to service the pop (we do it every day). It just means he built it because he wanted a fun DBZ site, that's all. And the site is very much his, because he could turn it into Paul Blart Souls or delete the whole thing tomorrow if he wanted, just like how Blizzard can aprubtly decide to close down its MMO's servers. No one is entitled to play here. I'm not sure what shortcomings you think I have, or what kind of 'oppressive nature' I operate with, but I'm guessing it's salt over the warning. I remember why you left the staff, and I was surprised and disappointed this morning at your level of (unfounded and incorrectly-based) agitation. You don't get to behave any way you want. You were warned three times -- that you were straddling Rule 1, that you needed to dial your anger back, and that you were being condescending. You chose to bite back with a snarky and dismissive comment, and you got a warning for it. You used to be staff, so you should know the rules about disrespecting staff-members.
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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 4:31:17 GMT
I guess the people that expressed me not being "angry" or "snarky" do not count, because I believe there were quite a few at the time. Again, I know how things work and I fail to see how I was any more snarky than you, who opened up our conversation by dangling the rule book over my head anyway. Let's be direct, you told me to stop and I did. My salt isn't over getting a warning, I still feel like you reached very high to get it to prove a point. That's my issue. If you feel like I was in any way disrespectful to you or your position then I apologize. I said as much in the CBox today. My intention wasn't to piss you off, or get on your nerves. I cannot say that enough. I had a real issue and I thought we were discussing it. I had a gripe, I aired it out. I still fail to see how I was condescending, when you countered my points and I countered yours. Both civilly, both without calling each other names. It was over when you " " at me, to which I gave one right back at you. You told me to shut the fuck up and I did. End of story. The warning in its entirety is a complete and utter reach to try and prove a point. I'm not satisfied with your explanation on why I received it, and for that you cannot differ yourselves from "every other site" in my mind.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 12, 2017 4:50:47 GMT
Giving you notice that you're about to breech Rule 1 is not 'dangling the rule book over your head'. I sat down to you saying in reference to the staff "I just want to ask if they've gone fucking nuts." Pretty disrespectful, and certainly not in the spirit of the top rule. You never apologized, and I never told you to 'shut the fuck up'. After I indicated for you to stop, your poor behavior continued. Allow me to refresh your memory: I go on to say that it was disrespectful: And you answer with more condescension: Before this point when I relayed you were getting on my nerves, you'd already been verbally warned about Rule 1 and your anger. If you want to be in denial about your bad behavior, fine, but I'm not sure what you're apologizing for if you think you did nothing wrong.
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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 5:05:11 GMT
I honestly fail to see how me giving advice was condescending. I had been told and have told similar comments when things become "too heated for the internet." We all have those moments, and it's better to "write the email and step away" rather than keep going and hit send. That was what I was suggesting for us both to do, that's what I ended up doing. That was genuine. I come off a bit gruff, I guess? I wasn't trying to take a cut at you. Not sure what else to say on that.
My comment to not trying to disrespect you, even though you said I was getting on your nerves, wasn't directed AT you. It was directed at someone else. And of course you didn't tell me to "shut the fuck up" literally, but one can read between the lines. OUR conversation was over. My last comment was directed at someone else, and if that's the straw that broke the camel's back then so be it.
And yes, my opening comment was indeed out of line. If you wanted to strike me down for that right off the bat I'd be more inclined to agree with whatever warn you gave me. After that, to my understanding, we debated with points and counter points alike. I still genuinely don't feel I was being out of line, or at least any more than you were.
Also, I'm apologizing because I consider myself to at least be decent, and if anything I had said hurt feelings. Nothing I said was meant to be malicious, so if it came off that way then I am apologizing.
I still think there's a huge problem, but this has become a circle with no end for me as I'm sure you feel the same way. I'll bow out as I think it's best for the both of us, and perhaps even the group as a whole. I'm a spoke on the wheel, I get it. And regardless the wheel keeps turning.
You guys have done great things, and Rev has built a great community. Hopefully the stresses don't continue to get to you and you guys feel like you need to rally the troops against anyone. This community doesn't hate its staff, so stop acting like it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2017 8:29:35 GMT
So, let me get this straight. When things get 'tense' on cbox and I show up like '...' and start posting pizza pictures means attacking Rev? Wow. Way to crucify someone with an evident lack of arguments, unless you have evidence that I've ever assaulted Rev in the past two years (and trust me, if I had, someone would have likely warned me by now).
Also, speaking of warnings-- maybe Kizuki does indeed deserve a warning but how come Rev's never got one? Anyone who has been active since April 2016 can likely confirm some episodes-- if not, I have evidence of Rev breaking Rule 1, 2 and 5 multiple times.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 12:01:11 GMT
So, let me get this straight. When things get 'tense' on cbox and I show up like '...' and start posting pizza pictures means attacking Rev? Wow. Way to crucify someone with an evident lack of arguments, unless you have evidence that I've ever assaulted Rev in the past two years (and trust me, if I had, someone would have likely warned me by now). Also, speaking of warnings-- maybe Kizuki does indeed deserve a warning but how come Rev's never got one? Anyone who has been active since April 2016 can likely confirm some episodes-- if not, I have evidence of Rev breaking Rule 1, 2 and 5 multiple times. "but therev started it tho " Unfortunately, Corn, I don't keep a gestapo-style evidence folder of everyone's occasional wrongdoing (I mostly just make memes). I'd love to see yours on me though. Kizuki, I'm in disbelief that you think that nothing you said was warn-worthy. Actual disbelief. You even suggest that your initial "question" is "outrageous": Everything is being blamed on how you think we see you AKA a false perception, but your attitude and demeanor is on display, disgustingly, in the very cbox logs you're so championing. I guess its super justified because I said an angry thing to Beryl, or an angry thing to Noxa? Okay. You showed me. Own your mistake.
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