Kojima
Archived
PL: 21,516; Hidden Potential (x4) 86,064; Items:Scouter, One-Use Space Pod; Zeni: 656
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Post by Kojima on Dec 10, 2014 2:08:57 GMT
Okay, I talked about this before but I'm going to protest it again. The androids "transformation" Overdrive may stack with their trans, but I'ma be honest.... Having to pay for it is beyond retarded. I get that it "stacks" with their trans, but their transformations are PERMANENT, if their trans acted like almost every other trans where they activated it instead then I could MAYBE see them having to spend a recovery thread to "re-calibrate" it and I'd be willing too, but having to pay upwards of 3k (Potentially if it's worded how I think it is) is just dumb, even having to pay 1 zeni would honestly be dumb in my opinion. I've tried finding ways to justify it but I just can't, yes they can't be sensed by ki sensing abilities, yes they are slightly more durable, but having to effectively pay for your transformation to be usable is REALLY dumb honestly. So here's a poll for whether to change this or not.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Dec 10, 2014 2:21:44 GMT
Confirming, after looking at the document, that it is 1000z, not up to 3000z... Unless Bao's able to explain that.
Also, as another confirmation, the vote won't actually apply unless enough of the community says, "We should vote on this."
Right now, since we're past the bigger, main portion of the patch, we can come back to this to discuss. Personally, I like the ability for the android to know how to repair its overdrive and spend up to 3 threads recovering it, based upon how much usage it's gotten. In addition, I feel like a x4 overdrive ability could be more satisfying rather a x3 amount. This way, if a person uses it, either in the same thread or 3 different ones, the values drop to x1, which'll tell the android, "I need repairs, now! Stop burning me out so much!"
Since it is the processor of the Android being sent into Overdrive, if it gets burnt to the point where it's at the x1 multiplier, the android gets reduced rewards, up to perhaps 75%. We could say that or we can do this: With the android's processor being burnt out, their ability to move and fight is reduced by 50% until it spends its time to recover and repair their processor or, if they reach the point, upgrade their processor by 1 level (IE: Gaining a new transformation, repairing the overdrive fully).
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Kojima
Archived
PL: 21,516; Hidden Potential (x4) 86,064; Items:Scouter, One-Use Space Pod; Zeni: 656
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Post by Kojima on Dec 10, 2014 2:29:48 GMT
It shouldn't require THAT many threads for a x3 multiplier, that's absolutely insane and dumb and honestly I'd retire Kojima at that point until I could make him a half saiyan. As it stands having to pay for a trans makes it so it'll be sitting at x0 until he gets to 50k because I refuse to pay to get it. Having reduced rewards also on top of this makes it even WORSE and REALLY would make Androids unplayable if you even wanted to consider using their Overdrive, ESPECIALLY at a massive fucking 75% reduction, honestly any reduction because of it makes the Overdrive simply not worth even HAVING on androids and might as well be discarded completely as an idea. Having their ability to fight and move as well on top of this makes their Overdrive even WORSE as it wouldn't even be worth using in an "Oh shit" moment. As it stands the gap for each transformation is way too large for that kind of thing to even be plausible. Basically from what I'm gathering as to what you say, Is you want to nerf Androids even further by making it so they get reduced rewards the more they use their ONLY transformation until 50k PL and reduced ability to fight. Basically making it so that if they have a 50% reduction, they're already beyond struggling against someone of EQUAL strength to their "base". On top of 75% reduced gains, it makes it even WORSE for Androids to do ANYTHING without a "perfect processor" which.... again, is dumb. Having a 50% weaker PL, 75% reduced gain AND requiring Zeni to repair or buy a "new one" would make Androids the weakest and hardest race to play with barely any actual pay off.
For instance: That'd put Kojima at 10k Power Level, weaker than almost every other character on the site by more than 50% (Meaning he stands 0 chance of winning the fight right from the start) on top of that, even IF he survives the thread any reward he'd get would be reduced by 75% so if, let's say, he'd gain 10k normally, that'd be reduced down to 2.5k, meaning literally every other race INCLUDING Arcosian has a higher growth rate than them as the ONLY way to counter this aside from paying a stupid amount of Zeni is with HEavy Weights and you're literally only nullifying the massive reduction, you aren't really gaining anything from it.
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Post by President Bao on Dec 10, 2014 3:38:13 GMT
Admin abooose - I've locked the poll, sorry but as per the policy proper discussions must precede poll creation, to develop the poll options based on community input rather than just one person, This was implemented to prevent issues observed in the past(polls not properly presenting options or denying community input into what actually gets represented) and properly consider the matter at hand fairly and equally.
I'm not sure where the previous thread has gone on this, cursory glance I couldn't find it but maybe someone else knows where. I'm very pinched for time (you may have noticed this as a going trend this week, sorry guys, trying my best...)
First up - I'm not really sure what you're talking about with that second comment.
Second up - in the same way Arcosians are the strongest early game race, androids are meant to be weaker early game. If i remember right they hit their stride around 'piccolo vs 17' levels, but don't quote me on that.
Important fact, often people assume otherwise - Zeni is acquired at the exact same rate as power level, if you can do a 1000pl thread in one go (which every single one of you one of you can and have done many times) then you can do the same for zeni.
Sorry, can't reply further, need to get back to work and I've already pushed this lunch break too far.
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Kojima
Archived
PL: 21,516; Hidden Potential (x4) 86,064; Items:Scouter, One-Use Space Pod; Zeni: 656
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Post by Kojima on Dec 10, 2014 3:52:11 GMT
We've had the discussion before and nobody could ever actually pay attention to it and so it was deleted because it was causing drama and bull shit Bao. The second post was directly responding to what Pieter said so probably should read that. Androids DON'T hit a stride EVER. They're weak early game and they end up with the lowest trans on the site end game. Even mid-game they don't have a higher trans than almost every other race. Regardless of "Zeni acquire rate" it's FORCING them to take zeni, you CAN'T not take it unless you never use your trans, which defeats the point of even having it. Edit: Okay so I just went through the trouble of typing out everything in an atleast semi-easy-to-read format. Please allow me a moment to re-edit this after this portion of the update to fully type out everything that needs to be. For the purposes of this example we'll be using the "Overdrive" special as their "first" transformation since it's the first modifier they get. I'll be listing what every races power level will be at when the Androids unlock a new trans. The number listed will be them at their MAXIMUM power. If a race has an ability that can be stacked with their trans it will be in brackets at it's maximum potential. Do please also keep in mind this isn't including any requirements that be in place for different races transformations or anything like that. First Transformation: x3, 5,000 Androids: 15,000 Saiyans: 50,000 Humans: 15,000 Arcosians: 50,000(True) Demons: 40,000(Makyo Empowerment) Hybrids: 30,000 (No Tail) 50,000 (Oozaru) Namekian: 20,000 Alien A: 10,000 Alien B: 20,000 Alien C: 60,000 Bio Androids: 5,000 As we can see from this, Androids are equal to Humans, Stronger than Alien A and Bio Androids, but weaker than all other races. Second Transformation: x6/50,000 Androids: 300,000 (450,000) Saiyans: 500,000 Humans: 150,000 Arcosians: 500,000 Demons: 400,000 Hybrids: 300,000 (No Tail) 500,000 (Tail) Namekian: 350,000 Alien A: 100,000 Alien B: 400,000 Alien C: 350,000 Bio Androids: 400,000 (700,000) As we can see here, they're stronger than a few but still largely outmatched in terms of numbers assuming they aren't able to use their x3 stacking transformation except for the Bio Androids and Hybrids/Saiyans who have their tails Third Transformation: x9/100,000 Androids: 900,000 (1,200,000) Saiyans: 1,200,000 Humans: 600,000 Arcosians: 1,000,000 Demons: 800,000 Hybrids: 1,100,000 Namekian: 700,000 Alien A: 600,000 Alien B: 800,000 Alien C: 700,000 Bio Androids: 800,000 (1,700,000) Here they pull ahead slightly without their x3 and with it they pull ahead of most except for 3. Fourth Transformation: x16/150,000 Androids: 2,400,000 (2,950,000) Saiyans: 1,800,000 Humans: 2,400,000 Arcosians: 2,250,000 Demons: 2,700,000 Hybrids: 1,650,000 Namekian: 2,700,000 Alien A: 2,250,000 Alien B: 1,500,000 Alien C: 2,700,000 Bio Androids: 2,400,000 (3,600,000) Once again they pull ahead of only a few, but for the most part are equal too or weaker than others without their x3 boost, with it they're weaker than only the bio androids. Fifth Transformation: x22/230,000 Androids: 5,060,000 (5,750,000) Saiyans: 3,910,000 Humans: 3,680,000 Arcosians: 3,680,000 Cyber Arcosians: 3,450,000 Demons: 4,140,000 (Sadly 10k off from being able to have a x22 modifier as well) Hybrids: 4,140,000 Namekian: 4,600,000 Alien A: 3,450,000 Alien B: 3,450,000 Cyber Alien B: 3,450,000 Alien C: 4,600,000 Bio Androids: 3,680,000 (5,520,000) As you can see here, they pull ahead quite a bit here even without their x3 so this is the first time that they don't need it unless facing a full x8 stacked Bio Android at 5.5m. Sixth Transformation: x31/300,000 Androids: 9,300,000 (10,200,000) Saiyans: 7,500,000 Humans: 6,900,000 Arcosians: 4,800,000 Cyber Arcosians: 9,000,000 Demons: 6,600,000 Hyrids: 7,500,000 Namekian: 9,600,000 Alien A: 7,500,000 Alien B: 4,500,000 Cyber Alien B: 9,000,000 Alien C: 9,600,000 Bio Androids: 8,400,000 (10,800,000) As we can see here, Both Arcosians and Alien B fall off HARD at this point. Since they both have no further transformations they're forced to take Cybernetics and become Cybercosians/CyberB's. As a result, I will not list them any further in this list as they become irrelevant as anyone can beat them at this point with ease. As for Androids, they have a hefty 9.3m/10.2m Power Level, Higher than most though a fully stacked Bio-Android does outpower them by a bit. Seventh Transformation: x39/400,000 Androids: 15,600,000 (16,800,000) Saiyans: 16,000,000 Humans: 9,200,000 Cyber Arcosians: 12,000,000 Demons: 15,600,000 Hyrids: 12,000,000 Namekian: 12,800,000 Alien A: 16,800,000 Cyber Alien B: 12,000,000 Alien C: 12,800,000 Bio Androids: 17,200,000 (20,000,000) As we can see with their final transformation, they can out scale SOME races but without their x3 transformation they can still be pummeled. And vs a Bio-Android, they stand absolutely no chance (Granted there aren't many of those) So overall, they "seem" like they're pretty strong all throughout the game. However, without their x3 modifier it's very obvious where and when they'll just be stomped. Now, this is ASSUMING that everyone is at max power when they get their new trans so this doesn't take into account other transformations that are attained NEAR this and obviously everyone won't be the EXACT same power level... ever. If we were to implement the 75% reduced gains and the 50% reduced power, this would cause them to become completely ineffective and easily within 1 shot range of any race at max power. Considering that ALL of the Androids transformations are permanent this doesn't really help them at all. So implementing that would nerf them to the point of being unplayable. After they hit 100k their "stack" becomes basically pointless to have really as they'll either be even or close too others. Bio Androids (Which there are none of) are the only ones who outpower/outscale them easily and that's only assuming they're at the max 8 stacks of their transformation stack ability.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Dec 10, 2014 4:42:26 GMT
Ok, so what's your idea for them to make them work out?
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Kojima
Archived
PL: 21,516; Hidden Potential (x4) 86,064; Items:Scouter, One-Use Space Pod; Zeni: 656
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Post by Kojima on Dec 10, 2014 5:52:25 GMT
Honestly just change it back to the way it was or flip it with their x6, make their overdrive back at the x8 it was and just have it as a perm all the way up or make their x6 their overdrive that can be activated a certain number of times per thread. There was nothing wrong with it before, it wasn't until their second one was revealed to be x6 that something was wrong with it. So I'd say just make their Overdrive back the way it was before at a x6 modifier instead and their second trans a x8. Or maybe make their Overdrive not have any of those dumb drawbacks but leave it at x3.
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Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
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Post by Pipa on Dec 17, 2014 18:26:17 GMT
I believe the issue someone might have with the swap is that it would make androids a lot more shiny for low level play. It looks like the androids chance to shine is at the 300,000-400,000 PL tier. The x6 up front would put them second in terms of starting transforms tat don't require an activation.
However, I would argue that acrosians make a comeback at this tier level (300,000), so why can't androids be stronger than the average bear up front too? Overdrive is a pretty sweet mechanic imo, but it doesn't give the feeling that this person has been augmented like the x6 trans does. After all in Dragon Ball, Android 8 isn't exactly a slouch. Flip flopping it would make it so that they start off pretty strong, and then they figure out how to overclock themselves later (w/ overdrive). I don't think that overdrives drawbacks should be removed though, just to re-prioritize it onto the second unlock.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Dec 17, 2014 21:54:57 GMT
So, you're saying something like a technique slot sacrificed to gain the Overclock Overdrive ability, Pipa?
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Kadbra
Rising Soul
PL: 23,827; Demonic Will (x3): 71,481 Makyo (x8) 190,616; Items: Heavy Weights (3,144.5 | 9,433.5 | 25,156); One-Use Space Pod; Black Great Sword; Senzu Bean 1; Zeni: 404
Tag: @kadbra
Posts: 106
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Post by Kadbra on Dec 17, 2014 21:57:37 GMT
Currently in the Android racial thread, it says nothing about having to pay to repair Overdrive, but rather simply that it counts as a Special Technique that stacks with their transformations. Also, no requirement is listed for Alpha form, which I would read as meaning they start with a 6x transformation right out the gate.
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Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
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Post by Pipa on Dec 17, 2014 22:03:31 GMT
Actually androids species page needs an update, last I checked none of their transformations have a PL requirement listing- which is why I am going off of the excel document. Pieter Wolfbane?
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Dec 17, 2014 22:03:33 GMT
I added it in the following post I believe, Kadbra.
Here it is:
This is pertaining to the special, Overdrive. Due to Overdrive having a need of maintenance, after a lot of usage, it costs 1000z to calibrate it back to x3. In addition, upon earning new levels of power, the Overdrive self-repairs by x1, if the Overdrive needs maintenance, up to recovering back to x3, if there was no Overdrive usage in between each transformation gained.
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Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
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Post by Pipa on Dec 18, 2014 16:17:58 GMT
So, you're saying something like a technique slot sacrificed to gain the Overclock Overdrive ability, Pipa? Oops didn't see this XD. I meant more that it should be an unlocked ability like bio-androids absorb. Here is how I would change it if I could. Unique Characteristics: Overdrive (x3)- Requires 50,000pl The android overcharges their bodies with energy, leading to a boost of 3x power-level but causing wear to their internal systems if used for too long. This currently registered as a 'Special Technique' Androids gain, that can be used in conjunction with its other transformations. Overdrive may stack on top of other transformations, so if the Android were to use a their (x6) α form they could fight at a level of someone with (x9) their base power level. α (x6): No PL requirement- Permanent. The first transformation of an android. It may be flavored how the player wants as long as they replace a character's internal/external features to show how they strengthened the character they have been altered by their creator. Try not to go overboard with replacement parts as an Android is meant to stay mostly humanoid in shape. Due to Overdrive having a need of maintenance, after a lot of usage, it costs 1000z to calibrate it back to x3. In addition, upon earning new levels of power, the Overdrive self-repairs by x1, if the Overdrive needs maintenance, up to recovering back to x3, if there was no Overdrive usage in between each transformation gained. -This isn't really a part of my argument, but have you guys that about making the self repair by x1 happen at every 6,000 pl? That way they don't HAVE to do a zeni grind, but if they don't they are still without their full power for 12,000pl worth of gains. I think that this makes sense, if we are to assume an android is an augmented human I'd think they'd start out with a permanent transformation- their entire existence is pretty much a transformation. By the 50,000 mark the other races are starting to catch up despite the androids superior design- so in a struggle the machine starts to overclock itself with overdrive.They would still fall into the average zone from 100,000-300,000. At 300,000 to 330,000 they will enjoy their golden age where they, cybercrosian, and alien b get a brief chance to shine before bio-android trumps them.
The only flaw I can see in my own argument is that androids have a ton of really good racial abilities that hurts the argument that they should get much spotlight time. Reconstruction seems unnecessary & maybe durability could be an optional money sink for a cyborg android.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Dec 18, 2014 18:46:44 GMT
I actually forgot another note of importance to get to in there, concerning Overdrive. I'll tell you guys it here, as I go get this in:
Overdrive is obtained at 5,000 Power Level.
So, in retrospect, it IS effectively like the Bio-Metabolise, but earned at a much earlier level, but it stacks on. Now, it would be very odd and detrimental to have the Androids get their x6 Permanent right then and there. The androids flow with: "I will permanently augment myself to be faster and stronger faster than most. I must seek out the target and eliminate them quick... I am the terminator of threats."
I am headed out the door, so I will try to explain later more.
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Post by President Bao on Dec 19, 2014 11:51:03 GMT
quick note before I run:
In the thread that was deleted (and shouldn't have been...) i believe I made an amendment along the lines of: 500z hotfix which has the muti go down by 1 but let you use it again, or the full fix of 1500 which restores it to x3 and lets you use it again.
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