Kojima
Archived
PL: 21,516; Hidden Potential (x4) 86,064; Items:Scouter, One-Use Space Pod; Zeni: 656
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Post by Kojima on Nov 29, 2014 22:56:26 GMT
I don't know if Bao realizes this or not, But humans (According to the google document) have the HIGHEST end game trans of ALL races with Alien A's coming in at x48. Humans have a massive x50 trans which is a bit over doubled what their trans is before that. I.... honestly I hate this.... a lot. Humans have a higher trans than Mastered SSJ3 which shouldn't be the case. My idea is that it gets nerfed to only twice what their previous one is, so it'd be x46 and that SSJ3 itself goes to x50, double what MSSJ2 is, and their MSSJ3 goes to x55
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Koramund
Archived
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Post by Koramund on Nov 29, 2014 22:58:21 GMT
I suggest instead that SSJ3 goes to 40, and their Mastered goes to 48. But for Humans, I think they should have their max X50 become a x48, while their previous transformations get a buff so they are closer, and so its not a massive jump.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 22:59:03 GMT
We could also consider a few more flaws in human characters since compared to the rest of the characters on the site they do not have anything that negatively effects them. I understand that humans having this high of a PL possibly links to characters like Anim from the series who are gods/goddesses, but I actually question their power myself since a young Goku took on Anim somewhat easily when he was young.
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Post by Wyntre Cold on Nov 29, 2014 23:58:56 GMT
Personally, I think any max final form below 40 ahould be made to 40 or above. I mean, 39x isn't something to rave about, nor is it rounded up...
Seriously though, it may even be best if everyone has a quite close final form, not counting specials (SS God, LSSJ, Other races equivalents).
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Kadbra
Rising Soul
PL: 23,827; Demonic Will (x3): 71,481 Makyo (x8) 190,616; Items: Heavy Weights (3,144.5 | 9,433.5 | 25,156); One-Use Space Pod; Black Great Sword; Senzu Bean 1; Zeni: 404
Tag: @kadbra
Posts: 106
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Post by Kadbra on Nov 29, 2014 23:59:03 GMT
Uub was also human, even if he was the reincarnated Buu, and his power was incredible. Saiyans shouldn't have the highest transformation of all races just because SSJ3 is the highest form in canon besides SSG, and humans peaking off as really powerful fits with their theme of underdogs becoming powerhouses. Although I agree that humans should have some backsides to show them being the Underdog.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 0:46:27 GMT
The problem with Uub was that he was the re-incarnation of a Majin, so his power was expected to be high and it was why Goku took it upon himself to step out into the ring and test the new Uub in the first place at the Budokai he went to. The reason being he couldn't risk Uub turning back to Buu's evil ways (although it's unlikely he ever would since he was wished to be good by Dragon Balls). That said, the manga only had him in one or two chapters to demonstrate his potential as the strongest human alive.
Goku, if I remember the chapter right, toned down his power at first then raised it as the fight got more intense as he realized the depths of this guy's powers. Which is why at the end of the fight, even though Uub did not win, he was taken by Goku on further adventures where the plot ends canon wise as GT is not considered canon by the site.
I honestly think the best thing we can do with this if there is a problem is keep the transformation modifier as is, but give Saiyans an extra, tiny benefit and humans more flaws and if this does not work we re-balance the transformations for the human species as a whole.
As Wyntre's said Arcosians have one of the weakest, if not the weakest transformation out of the group. They can avoid one death for by becoming a Cyber Arcosian and gaining x39 power as their max pretty early on, but as a whole they stand losing out in the long run since all gains for them are always going to be fifty percent less then they would be due to their difficult to control trait.
Androids are kind of lucky end game because although they start with a x39 maximum power they may boost this power to x42 with their first transformation ability due to Overdrive stacking. This allows for up to x126 times one's normal damage with three charges of an attack.
Demons also suffer from an x39 power, but at the same time they gain a custom x4 skill. Unfortunately, this skill has no ability to stack with transformations and can only be charged in the base form. That said, this skill can be either offensive or support, but by making it a support skill the owner of the technique loses the ability to use the special x4 ability applied to it as Satin has shown with his custom demon skill to teleport.
Everyone else I see gets at least a x40 transformation, except for B species aliens who are like Arcosians. I really think people with human-based and more Saiyan-based characters need to have a say in this though as they would be the people most effected by this.
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Post by Toma on Nov 30, 2014 1:03:19 GMT
Honestly, coming from a Saiyan player, giving Saiyans a tiny Pl gain modifier naturally (10% or so) since they're supposed to be a warrior species, or making the final himan/Saiyan trans equal in power IMO would seem fair
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Kojima
Archived
PL: 21,516; Hidden Potential (x4) 86,064; Items:Scouter, One-Use Space Pod; Zeni: 656
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Post by Kojima on Nov 30, 2014 1:44:38 GMT
Arcosian's can't get their cybernetic thing until they're at 200,000 PL so I don't know where the fuck Oni is getting the "Pretty early on" thing from...
Humans have the benefit of being adaptable with more techniques learned, that's why I said they need to be weakened, I stated Saiyan's SSJ3/MSSJ3 needs to be buffed because, as noted, they are a WARRIOR race meaning they are naturally stronger than all other races who AREN'T strictly warrior based. They spend their entire lives fighting and training and getting their asses kicked while kicking some ass themselves. Uub also, as mentioned, was a HUMAN. The only difference is he had an exceptionally high PL for being a Human. Humans need a weaker trans than a WARRIOR race because they get more techs than them, If they got both that AND a higher/equal Trans modifier they'd be insanely overpowered.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 1:54:06 GMT
Or we could just take away all the bonuses each gives and just stick with a number gain with no ways of adding multipliers? I mean cmon guys that document you have should not exist. All it is doing is causing headaches and issues for all of you to get riled over things NONE of us will be at for a long time. Hell I am all for deleting the document and just taking away the priviledge of looking at it if all its gonna do is keep causing these arguments.
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Post by President Bao on Nov 30, 2014 1:58:45 GMT
"Problem" ? --- I am acutely aware of the fact humans have the strongest final trans, it is entirely by design (not my own in this case, a carry over from this sites predecessor) I would point out that you need to take a look at when each race receives their transformations and consider for example every 50,000 pl who is balanced where, cause your comment about it being double their previous trans is even MORE reason why they are deserving of it, not less. Things have not been chosen arbitrarily Perhaps more important though: Why do you consider this bad? Why should saiyans, the most popular race by default, who also remain powerful throughout their entire game cycle, get to have the highest final transformation? ('b*tch I look like Goku' is not a good reason ) Humans start off 'average' on creation, then remain soundly outpaced throughout the rest of the game, untill their final trans where they are rewarded for their patience/determination. I'm not sure why you are trying to rob them of their compensation/reward... simply because you want saiyans to be best? edit: Nin - I disagree on that fact, I think such things should be in the open and people should be able to comment/discuss if they like. It is true however a lot of this stuff is a long way off, given many are closer to 5000pl than 500,000pl. (also, mind your manners Koj, no being abrasive or disrespecting other members, discussions are to remain civil and polite. 'pretty early on' is probably based on the fact their final trans comes a full 100,000pl sooner than some of the other races...)
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Kojima
Archived
PL: 21,516; Hidden Potential (x4) 86,064; Items:Scouter, One-Use Space Pod; Zeni: 656
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Post by Kojima on Nov 30, 2014 2:03:53 GMT
Except I don't want Saiyans to be the best. I've stated my reasoning as to why Saiyans should be stronger than Humans even at endgame. Humans get a faster learning curve, Meaning they get the most techniques out of ALL of the races and I thought that was their 'gimmick' so to speak. As for Ninjin, I'm not getting riled up over it, I'm simply stating my view on the thing.
Also: Bao, They get theirs at the same time that Saiyans get their MSSJ3 which is why I'm talking only about Saiyans and not others as others get theirs before them at least 50k or more before them. Saiyans get SSJ3 at 400k true, But to my knowledge SSJ3 takes a lot of energy compared to MSSJ3, But as I said my only problem is that they get them at the same time but theirs is more powerful. If nothing else I'd suggest they at least have to wait slightly longer to get theirs to compensate.
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Post by President Bao on Nov 30, 2014 2:56:27 GMT
Saiyans use to not have a 'mastered ssj3' at all (indeed many 'intermediate' or additional steps were added to the transformations during a rework by Rensou, whose methodical work most of this was derived from), so things are a lot more harmonised than they use to be. They are a warrior race, but that reflects on their mentality, racial ability and starter power level, not their end game transformation which in no way precludes others from being higher than them. Humans are intended to have the best end game out of any race, it was infact their design objective(in antithesis to arcosians) to make them distinct/interesting and to justify their earlier weakness. Their additional techniques compensate them a little through the rest of the game for this long term confinement the the bottom tier, but every race's transformations are designed to have a particular point where they are (statistically) the strongest, and for humans it is right at the end. You will notice a number of other races have the same pl requirement and yet a higher or lower mutiplier than another race(or indeed same multiplier but different pl requirements). This is again to create diversity and reinforce the 'every dog has its day' dynamic races are meant to create. For instance, at 150,000pl namekians have a x18, while alien A only gets a x15. Or at 300,000pl Androids get a x31 while Hybrids only get a x25. Or for x16 Arcosians need 220,000, while Alien C gets their x16 at 150,000.
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Kojima
Archived
PL: 21,516; Hidden Potential (x4) 86,064; Items:Scouter, One-Use Space Pod; Zeni: 656
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Post by Kojima on Nov 30, 2014 3:01:34 GMT
I still don't agree honestly, Like I said if nothing else at least increase it to like 525k or 550k to get their final one since it'll be higher than MSSJ3 to reflect them being the strongest at their end game.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on Nov 30, 2014 21:23:37 GMT
No. The human pay-off is that they get the highest at the end. They shouldn't have to wait even longer for this as they have already had to sit at low-mid tier throughout already. Their 'gimmick' is a higher technique rate, same as the saiyan gimmick is zenkai/near-death boosts, or that Namekians can regenerate limbs, or that Arcosians have a horrific level of 'toughness'. This is separate to power-level and transformation multipliers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 18:34:39 GMT
Alright, I was gonna keep quiet on this, but I do believe it's required my own attention. We talk about humans being the weakest right? But lets take a minute and step back, the way I see it Alien A is weaker than humans. There's a specific reason I believe this. The Alien A's first trans is 2x, While humans have a 3x, which Alien A doesn't need a certain pl to control theirs, but at 20k humans can control theirs.
This first transformation is a
2x to a 3x putting humans ahead starting alright.
Now when it comes to the second trans, Humans and Alien A are both even.
Third trans, Alien A's possess a 15x times trans, which requires a Higher Pre pl requirement. That means Humans easily beat out Aliens at first. Then comes the fourth transformation where Humans do indeed get a bit weaker, but I do wish to state this.
They both need 250,000 for their pl gain. Which it gives Alien a a 2x higher than them. with Alien A having a 25x and then a human have a 23x. Then here's where it gets me that makes me laugh.
Humans can get their final trans at 500,000 alright that's decent. An Alien get's their at 460,000 pl which isn't much difference as stated about only a 10k difference. But the fact of it is, The Alien A need's a saga defeat to even get their 48x which means death. As for Humans they only have a requirement to get to 500,000 pl. And then it gives them a 50x boost compared to a 48x a alien A states. Continuing this, Humans have a natural racial ability to gain a technique every 4,000 pl opposed to 6,000. They literally have no weaknesses in their traits.
But for Alien A's to require a death/Saga defeat for a form that's suppose to be weaker than a humans legend form, is not ok in my books. I will fight this all the way honestly. Humans are underdogs yes, but to become the strongest end game? I don't see that happening at all. Even in the show none of them had surpassed a ssj3. Let alone a SSJ, if you want to count Uub, He wasn't human as you think. He was wished back as a good guy. He was in fact still a Majin in pretense which gave him abnormal power when brought back.
So honestly Bao, I do not agree with the humans Legendary form being a 50x at 500,000 pl. When Alien A and Human both have almost a double their previous pl for forms.
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