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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 0:21:15 GMT
I just want to open up with sincerely asking anyone and everyone who responds to this thread to do so in a serious manner. If you feel like you must respond, then do so. But please, be respectful to everyone. No name calling, no outlandish comments. Let's have a discussion. I came online about an hour ago to see this: Warn PostI want to start out by saying Vi-Poi is right. If you're an ass to staff and they give you a chance to cut it out, cut it out. Even if you feel like you're NOT being an ass, STOP. My appeal, though, is simple. I was asked to stop, I stopped. I made two comments after Vi had asked me to stop speaking, and that my opinions were getting on his nerves, and that I was being condescending. To each their own. To be frank, I wasn't even talking to him, I was talking to Shemha, explaining myself. From there, I left. My next post was actually literally, "I'm not trying to disrespect Vi, who thinks my opinions are annoying." Which is a true statement, not one meant to be condescending. But, let's rewind. Because I did start off harshly. I'll level with anyone reading this post, I've had about enough of the somewhat oppressive nature that Zucceta , and to some extent, ViPoi have been directing towards members they clearly do not like. I came in and asked if the staff had lost their fucking minds for an admin to come into the CBox and call a member a power gamer, i.e. something who is purposely trying to ruin the game for self gain. Let me be frank, very recently, maybe not even a week ago, I defended the STAFF in a thread post against a member who called them unfair, showing favoritism against older members / other staff, etc. etc. My problem has nothing to do with the staff itself. My anger is directed to two very specific individuals. I don't want this FLIPPED that Vi and Rev are "tired of people getting on staff's case." I've never criticized staff, I'm criticizing the way certain individuals do things, and it's my right to. I will be clear, it is staff's job to find and point out to someone when they are breaking the rules. Whether it's IC and/or OOC. My entire conversation and suggestion was simple: Please, do not continue to do this in public. There is no reason to have players potentially exposed to some sort of negativity before personally dealing with it in private. We had a former staff and site member who used their power to try and potentially prevent people from RPing with another member. They were dealt with swiftly. I believe using one's power as staff to publicly shame a player that is not agreeable with them is in line with what. Cliques were brought up somewhere in the conversation, which I find to be another bit of heresy to the situation. We all have a group that we feel most comfortable RPing with. The nature of most shonen manga/anime focuses on a group. To be frank, ViPoi, Bing Gan , and Rev have been a huge group for a while. No one cares. Literally, no one cares that you guys RP in a "clique" as you call it. Blaming people making friends on a social website holds no water to your issues as staff whatsoever. If you're seeing outside groups as a threat then there's a problem. Not with them, but with you. Anyway, I'd like my 10% to be retracted, as I was asked to stop and I did. I feel like the warn was a huge reach in order to get me to "see what I did wrong." And I'd like to have ViPoi looked at, as staff, for making such an accusation. I feel this is a clear indication that there is something definitely not right with the way things are going as of late. The "being an ass" part is overkill, imo and shows a clear lack of professionalism. You may not get paid for your job as staff, ViPoi, and I get that being former staff here myself. There are some instances where it's very tough, and the group feels like it needs to band together against those who are trying to "hurt it" but most members have real issues that should be addressed rather than swept under the rug. If my 10% sticks, then you deserve double because you're staff. The entire conversation is posted here, as we were both using the same tone of "voice" with each other until it ended. If anything, we're both guilty of snide comments and tones then. I never once went "over your tone" the entire conversation.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 0:31:52 GMT
None of this is particularly relevant to the precise instance of why you were actually warned--you know that, right? You've seen the image in the warning thread, presumably, as well as my own actual confirmation.
As for the rest of this Gordian rhetoric, I'll get my sword in a bit.
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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 0:34:06 GMT
None of this is particularly relevant to the precise instance of why you were actually warned--you know that, right? You've seen the image in the warning thread, presumably, as well as my own actual confirmation. As for the rest of this Gordian rhetoric, I'll get my sword in a bit. Why I was actually warned still holds no water. I was told to stop and I did.
I believe you questioned everyone on staff for going back and applying warning levels to certain members "after the fact." To tell someone to stop, and they do, but warn them because you're still angry is a problem.
Perhaps you didn't read the first sentence of my appeal, where I asked to take it seriously.
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 0:36:30 GMT
None of this is particularly relevant to the precise instance of why you were actually warned--you know that, right? You've seen the image in the warning thread, presumably, as well as my own actual confirmation. As for the rest of this Gordian rhetoric, I'll get my sword in a bit. Why I was actually warned still holds no water. I was told to stop and I did.
I believe you questioned everyone on staff for going back and applying warning levels to certain members "after the fact." To tell someone to stop, and they do, but warn them because you're still angry is a problem.
Perhaps you didn't read the first sentence of my appeal, where I asked to take it seriously.
Vi-Poi was going to warn you at the time, but he was on the way out the door. This isn't a retro-active warn, it was on your head as soon as you said "Vi, I hardly care. " In your own words, "If you're an ass to staff and they give you a chance to cut it out, cut it out. Even if you feel like you're NOT being an ass, STOP." I'm not sure where you think I'm not taking this seriously.
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Post by Tabu on Feb 12, 2017 0:36:35 GMT
Could we perhaps have a link to the 'power gamer' thing in question, would like to know the context. Not if it's against site policy or anything
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2017 0:48:00 GMT
Tabu --or really anyone else who wants to read it.
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 0:52:05 GMT
Tabu --or really anyone else who wants to read it. ... I didn't actually call @noxa a power-gamer here. I don't think Noxa's a power-gamer. Maybe I did, once. I think she's super competitive and it detracts from her writing (or, at least, the integrity of her character actions that seem more heavily OOCly influenced than most), but I don't think she's written a solo in ages, and she RPs with a bunch of people. I was refuting Noxa's definition of whom we "brand" as power-gamers--"If you get PL too fast you're branded a power-gamer". Maybe by some people, but not by any current staff. "Sick of your shit" was unprofessional sure, but I was sick of it--still am. Noxa was, for a long time, telling people a bunch of, what I consider to be, misinformation and then claiming they were "opinions" (right, like the USA nuked the moon) and getting defensive when Bing decided to argue it. I have pictures where it also seems she's (or, at least, a blacked-out name which I shall refer to as "Axon") reinforcing Katherine 's beliefs, despite actual evidence being given to disprove them. It's shitty to do. I'm going to be shitty back. I know it was meant to be private, but you're trying to tell me there's not an anti-staff atmosphere while at the same time promoting actual lies? I genuinely like Noxa. I like Kizuki. I'm sure if I actually managed to have a single conversation with someone such as @orangotto without him coming across snidily or glib I'd probably like them, too. But when there seems to be something weird building behind the scenes, with members again and again and again seeming to just come at staff, it makes me wish I ran this site like most ProBoards forums are run. I don't want to host you. Go make your own site. Even if it killed Souls, go do it--you're actually hurting my staff members, or at least me, and I'm at the end of the line.
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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 1:01:44 GMT
There is no anti-staff atmosphere unless the staff themselves encourage it, in my opinion. Again, I'm asking that with the full length conversation posted that my 10% be revisited, and if it stays then I truly believe ViPoi should also get a warning for the same "attitude" used throughout the conversation. All of my points and statements were in line, I even agreed with a lot of what he said.
I still feel this warning in it's entirety was a reach.
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Post by Tabu on Feb 12, 2017 1:04:29 GMT
Thanks Corn. Anyway, addressing both sides of the argument here. This are just my opinions and are not intended to imply anything or hurt anyone, and I'm not going to bother addressing the things I don't know anything about. In respect to NOXA, she does write a lot, and is sometimes competitive with threads, partly due to her characters, but hey that's her right as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I'm sorry Kiz, but I don't really agree with you. It is true that Zuc might have been a bit rude when addressing NOXA, but that doesn't really excuse what you did. Aside from the 'disrespecting' part, you were (from my POV) being overly blunt/agressive at the staff, specifically Vi-Poi for the actions of Zucceta, which is simply not ok. I think that might have been the part that Vi found annoying, not your opinions, and you were clearly going over him. As for the 'oppression' I really don't have any idea what your talking about. Unless I am missing some Pm's or offsite convos, I have seen absolutely no sanctions against players that the staff don't like, for the sake of arguement NOXA. They don't have lower grades than anyone else, and they don't seek out their players to attack/kill for non-IICLY reasons. If you have evidence to the contrary, please let me know. For the other side, I agree that 1 or two complaints against the staff tend to be shoved into the same basket of 'somebody is criticizing the staff again' without being given a ton of consideration, but these tend to be discussed in the cbox or thread anyway and brought up again anyway, so it's not like it is being completely shot down. 1 or tw Staff don't exactly have a regenerating patience bar after all . I also agree that, if it happened beyond the one or two times I have seen, that the public shaming shabang probably should be looked at. Not to question policies that have been in place for years, but to me it just seems to breed resentment. TLDR: I don't think the warning should be taken down, sorry.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 1:04:33 GMT
There is no anti-staff atmosphere unless the staff themselves encourage it, in my opinion. I think I need the statistics on that one.
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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 1:17:04 GMT
There is no anti-staff atmosphere unless the staff themselves encourage it, in my opinion. I think I need the statistics on that one. If there's something that staff does that upsets members, members will be upset at staff. I think perhaps the less than necessary unfriendliness you have been emitting lately is a byproduct of the most recent spark of it.
Perhaps calling Beryl "lame" in the CBox for all his friends to see didn't sit well with them, maybe that's why Cornatto and the others aren't as active anymore, and when they are they give snorts you're not a fan of.
We can't all be nice, I am a shining example of that, but I think I'm more than fair when it comes to a lot of things.
As someone who said they "value my opinion" (which I hope was not bullshit) I'd think you'd realize that.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 1:20:41 GMT
Beryl immediately left as soon as he couldn't do what he wanted to do after message after message of ignoring what we were trying to say about it. Perhaps I should have simply left my thoughts on that action subtextual, yeah--I'm not going to change my opinion on it.
Your 10% is staying. Neither I nor Vi are going to get any warnings, particularly after you spread misinformation (or misinterpretation) about what I said after Noxa. You keep referring to the cbox log as if it makes you look good, but you just look like a peanut gallery ignoring what's being said, further promoting false information/interpretations of what I said without the relevant context before outright ignoring Vi.
Maybe I'm confirming your bias, but you just confirmed mine.
Find somewhere else to be outraged.
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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 1:20:43 GMT
Thanks Corn. Anyway, addressing both sides of the argument here. This are just my opinions and are not intended to imply anything or hurt anyone, and I'm not going to bother addressing the things I don't know anything about. In respect to NOXA, she does write a lot, and is sometimes competitive with threads, partly due to her characters, but hey that's her right as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I'm sorry Kiz, but I don't really agree with you. It is true that Zuc might have been a bit rude when addressing NOXA, but that doesn't really excuse what you did. Aside from the 'disrespecting' part, you were (from my POV) being overly blunt/agressive at the staff, specifically Vi-Poi for the actions of Zucceta, which is simply not ok. I think that might have been the part that Vi found annoying, not your opinions, and you were clearly going over him. As for the 'oppression' I really don't have any idea what your talking about. Unless I am missing some Pm's or offsite convos, I have seen absolutely no sanctions against players that the staff don't like, for the sake of arguement NOXA. They don't have lower grades than anyone else, and they don't seek out their players to attack/kill for non-IICLY reasons. If you have evidence to the contrary, please let me know. For the other side, I agree that 1 or two complaints against the staff tend to be shoved into the same basket of 'somebody is criticizing the staff again' without being given a ton of consideration, but these tend to be discussed in the cbox or thread anyway and brought up again anyway, so it's not like it is being completely shot down. 1 or tw Staff don't exactly have a regenerating patience bar after all . I also agree that, if it happened beyond the one or two times I have seen, that the public shaming shabang probably should be looked at. Not to question policies that have been in place for years, but to me it just seems to breed resentment. TLDR: I don't think the warning should be taken down, sorry. I appreciate your openness, but even after I read your post and I read the entire conversation between myself and Poi in the CBox, I still think we were, at most, both pretty snarky too each other if anything. I was asked to stop, and I did. Clear and cut.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 12, 2017 1:22:19 GMT
Thanks Corn. Anyway, addressing both sides of the argument here. This are just my opinions and are not intended to imply anything or hurt anyone, and I'm not going to bother addressing the things I don't know anything about. In respect to NOXA, she does write a lot, and is sometimes competitive with threads, partly due to her characters, but hey that's her right as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I'm sorry Kiz, but I don't really agree with you. It is true that Zuc might have been a bit rude when addressing NOXA, but that doesn't really excuse what you did. Aside from the 'disrespecting' part, you were (from my POV) being overly blunt/agressive at the staff, specifically Vi-Poi for the actions of Zucceta, which is simply not ok. I think that might have been the part that Vi found annoying, not your opinions, and you were clearly going over him. As for the 'oppression' I really don't have any idea what your talking about. Unless I am missing some Pm's or offsite convos, I have seen absolutely no sanctions against players that the staff don't like, for the sake of arguement NOXA. They don't have lower grades than anyone else, and they don't seek out their players to attack/kill for non-IICLY reasons. If you have evidence to the contrary, please let me know. For the other side, I agree that 1 or two complaints against the staff tend to be shoved into the same basket of 'somebody is criticizing the staff again' without being given a ton of consideration, but these tend to be discussed in the cbox or thread anyway and brought up again anyway, so it's not like it is being completely shot down. 1 or tw Staff don't exactly have a regenerating patience bar after all . I also agree that, if it happened beyond the one or two times I have seen, that the public shaming shabang probably should be looked at. Not to question policies that have been in place for years, but to me it just seems to breed resentment. TLDR: I don't think the warning should be taken down, sorry. I appreciate your openness, but even after I read your post and I read the entire conversation between myself and Poi in the CBox, I still think we were, at most, both pretty snarky too each other if anything. I was asked to stop, and I did. Clear and cut. Except you didn't stop and there are several screenshots that show it.
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Post by Kizuki on Feb 12, 2017 1:22:33 GMT
Beryl immediately left as soon as he couldn't do what he wanted to do after message after message of ignoring what we were trying to say about it. Perhaps I should have simply left my thoughts on that action subtextual, yeah--I'm not going to change my opinion on it. Your 10% is staying. Neither I nor Vi are going to get any warnings, particularly after you spread misinformation (or misinterpretation) about what I said after Noxa. You keep referring to the cbox log as if it makes you look good, but you just look like a peanut gallery ignoring what's being said, further promoting false information/interpretations of what I said without the relevant context before outright ignoring Vi. Maybe I'm confirming your bias, but you just confirmed mine. Find somewhere else to be outraged. Alright then. Case closed, then.
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