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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 16:06:32 GMT
So, I feel like I need to put this up, because either there is not a clear idea of what this is exactly, or people are interpreting it different ways, or something. Zuccetta and Walker DE Last post in this DE, I hit Zucc with a Kikoho, about 150% of her PL. She had already taken nearly 80% of her PL in damage, including melee hits. Earlier, I was told I was not being sporting when Walker survived a hit that was about 85-90% of his PL with Bio-Regen. He had taken some non-tech melee hits as well, and fired a 2-charge Kikoho. I had to clarify that he was pretty badly injured, but I was under the assumption he would be dead after that, or at least unconscious or something, if he hadn't regenerated. I had and have been, through the thread, trying to play pretty close to Zucc in terms of strength. Despite having a higher PL, she's within 80% of me, which according to site rules makes us even. I was also told, by Nic, that I should have been bleeding out/dying from that amount of damage. Zucc, upon being hit with this Kikoho, was dealt just over 1.5x her PL in damage. Given her already injured state, I would personally expect that to be a killing level blow to take. If not, at LEAST totally unconcious or something similar. The total damage she had taken from both hits, with no healing, was over 230% of her PL. However, she managed to remain alive and awake, merely bleeding out, and use a Senzu bean, thus bringing her back to full health and KP. I'm not saying Zucc should have out and out died, but It's my view that if you're surviving something of that level due to a Senzu, you're taking it before the attack so you take it at full strength, not already heavily injured. I was informed that previous injuries don't stack in terms of damage taken, which seems very bizarre to me, but I'll confess, that's sometimes how it appears in DBZ. However, when someone is taken down by a final attack, there is severe damage done beforehand, and the attack is a finishing blow. Essentially, I want to have it be solidly determined what people can survive, what they can continue to act after, etc. In the DEs I have witnessed, people usually die to far less than 200% of their PL, which is what I was quoted. If that's not the case, then fine, but it needs to be made more clear to the site or something.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 22, 2016 16:29:15 GMT
This is a tricky thing to weigh in on referee-wise, because whichever way is ruled means the fight wins or loses on the ruling. Right now, you're clearly at the disadvantage, having used your senzu to create a surprise second attack on top of your first rather than keep it for a save. It was risky and might have paid off, but you likely weren't willing to use the 2nd change that would have added more weight since it'd have killed you.
Fighting on Souls has been a 'give and take' proposition. 80/60 guides the whole deal, and when two fighters are equal they're expected to try to respect one another's actions during the fight. When neither side wants to lose, it becomes a difficult prospect. The careful managing of techs and KP can pull one person ahead, but the system is adversarial so your opponent can throw off your plan. PL isn't HP, yeah, and it doesn't whittle away at equal proportions to damage received.
I've given my piece in saying that I think there hasn't been any lines crossed in the tanking and the senzu use was fair, that's my take on it, but maybe other players have a different insight and I'd like to hear it. There are DEs where people have taken more damage as a proportion of their PL and senzu'ed up.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 17:22:00 GMT
Alright, one thing I'd like to add: If it, as you said before, is considered about 2X your PL: How are people who are not massively outmatched supposed to reasonably accomplish that without charging a whole bunch? We see people in DBZ die to a final attack, rarely a long charged one, so that doesn't fit with the Canon angle.
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Nicolas Mclendon
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on May 22, 2016 19:29:51 GMT
Using one of my past threads as an example: wodsouls.freeforums.net/thread/4872/clash-wills-battle-maeve-open?page=2You can see Habana took a hit at 1.46x her power level after taking much more abuse than just one [UP2] but she still had the ability to use a senzu giving her a dramatic lead which caused her to win the fight. Im sure there are more examples out there but that example is a personal one where I ended up being the loser and Im using it to say that there are no shenanigans at play here. People have senzued after big hits for a full recovery numerous times here. Sure it lead to me losing the battle but I didnt care because It made for good roleplay and it made sense to me. Also the main reason I PMed you wasnt because I thought Walker should have been dead it was because I felt like you were no selling the damage completely. Zucceta's post clearly had her take the hit without just shrugging it off she was flat out knocked out of super saiyan and sent hurtling away. It seemed like a realistic time to use a senzu and like Habana it signified a potential dramatic shift in the fight.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2016 11:24:35 GMT
Well, I'm hoping there is more input on this, as I had already heard from Vi-Poi and Nic in other capacities, but in the even there's not, My feelings are the following.
The idea of a freeform health system is all well and good. However, I utterly fail to see any indication of this rule of thumb you mentioned listed in a public area, and it is absolutely not fair in the slightest for staff to have knowledge of the connotations of the rules, ESPECIALLY what you can handle/survive, that is not listed to others. The issue of rules being vague, or just flat-out failing to be updated, has been one that I've run into numerous times now, and it's really quite frustrating as I'm trying to not flout the rules of the site.
It was mentioned that I may be being overly competitive about this, and yes, honestly, that's probably true. Zuccetta has been the big bad of the site for a while, and is also run by someone who literally knows the way the mechanics work inside and out. It's become increasingly clear to me that I do not. You mentioned me using my senzu for a surprise attack. The entirety of the reason for that was due to a PM I received from a staff member that lead me to believe that I would be unable to do so if I sustained a serious attack at my current level of damage. Given I had previously been lead to believe that significantly above your PL attacks would kill or knock you out, it seemed that I essentially had no choice but to use it before that attack came.
I then used the Kikoho because I assumed that the same held true for my opponent, and I was attempting to force Zuccetta to use a Senzu, heal up and restore to max KP, and counter it, thus leaving us both at full health and no KP. Instead, I discover that I could have not used it, and been perfectly able to use it later, but I confess, it feels very much like if I had, I would instead be having a conversation about trying to use a Senzu at the last possible moment.
The short version: If these are the rules, fine, but I refuse to believe it's fair to have them be vague and unhelpful under the label "Freeform" when the admins and mods, who run some of the site's most powerful and increasingly unable to be challenged characters know the actual details. It's not fun for the rest of us to be ground under the BBA or SSE's bootheel because the Stun rules hadn't been fixed.
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Val
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Post by Val on May 23, 2016 16:53:31 GMT
So I'm not sure if it's appropriate for me to comment here, but I just wanted to bring something up as a new player with regards to the combat mechanics. I must admit to a little confusion - which I was planning on tackling once I actually wound up fighting - as to the precise detail of how taking damage works.
I think primarily this arises from how there's a lot of firm number crunching with PLs and charging and tiers of attacks, but then little with regards to dealing and receiving damage - in the rules as written all that is there is that an attack of 3 million PL on somebody with 3 million PL is likely to severely hurt them, whereas 1-2 million 'could be blocked or just bounce off'
- my point being, there isn't really a clear demarcation in the rules that I've read which indicates just when somebody's going to get killed/debilitated by a given attack. Perhaps this is something that'd go away with a bit more experience on my own part, as I mentioned, I haven't gone through a fight firsthand - but I do feel that even just firmer/clearer guidelines on the taking damage side of things might just help in terms of easing confusion and maybe helping out in borderline cases like this one?
I dunno, just my 02, but given the topic came up I did want to take a moment to express that those rules could possibly be stated a touch more explicitly? I definitely understand the principle of wanting to write a good scene first and compete to 'win' second, but I don't think having additional information will harm RPing.
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Post by Negi on May 23, 2016 18:28:14 GMT
My thoughts on this are a little jumbled, so let me try and make my points as clearly as I can.
The real issue that I see is the concept of giving other players the benefit of the doubt. PL, and the current 80/65 system for is fantastic as a basis as it sits - for roleplay.
When you have something like a DE thread or dragonball challenge, there is generally an obvious bias for those characters involved. We are all human, and that bias is something that nobody can escape (no matter how unbiased you might think you are, you aren't).
The rules are still incredibly fuzzy to me on the majority of the topics that are being discussed here. I've read through the rules and mechanics probably 10-15 times... So I'm certainly not ignorant to them. Unfortunately, there are rules that are very lacking...
1. You can use one senzu bean per thread. There is no real rule as to when a character can ingest it, and in cases where a huge amount of damage is taken... It's kind of hard to ingest something (even 'essence') when you should be completely dead or even just unconscious. You can not eat something whilst unconscious without it being shoved down your throat, end of story, and if anyone wants to debate that with me then make a youtube video where you eat a bowl of corn while you are asleep.
2. There NEEDS to be a solid, set-in-stone percentage of PL damage that can be taken both overall and in response to an individual attack. Otherwise, like I said before, it comes down to player bias (I mean, just look at this thread. We wouldn't need it if it weren't for that very issue.) There should be a percentage for unconsciousness, and one for death. For example, if you took 200% of your PL as damage in a single attack, then it is probable that even if your character isn't dead per se, they would at the very least be unconscious or unable to move/function. I believe that it would also help clear up the issue of when Senzu can be taken - if you are targeted by an attack that would knock you unconscious or kill you... You would need to take the senzu beforehand, and not just take the entire blast that should kill you, hop up, and be ready to go. If you shoot someone in the chest with a gun and the bullet pierces their heart then they will most assuredly be dead before they can even get to the phone to dial 911.
I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that when it comes to the numbers game, when a character's life or property is on the line, then there needs to be clearer definition to the rules. Even something simple helps to clear the fog. This forum is supposed to be about RP > Stats in general, but there will always be times when Stats MUST TAKE PRECEDENCE over roleplay.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2016 22:42:18 GMT
The rules on combat were recently added to in order to make this particular kind of thing more clear. At this point, I think it can be moved to a suggestion thread if you guys think the new stuff is insufficient. The particular circumstances of this as a grievance were resolved.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on May 23, 2016 23:17:46 GMT
2. There NEEDS to be a solid, set-in-stone percentage of PL damage that can be taken both overall and in response to an individual attack. Disagree 99% with this statement (and honestly I feel there is some entitlement therein). This is, after all, a roleplay site (as italicised above). DE's and dragon ball threads ARE ROLEPLAY. There are certain adherences that should be kept, and I indeed added specifics regarding the vaporization/instant death/KO's to the combat mechanics page, but what you're suggesting would dictate every fight. I really dislike this line of thinking. The system (or, rather, focus on an "enabled" freeform rather than pure numbers) has worked for almost three years now. Anyway, as Walker said, if this is really an issue then it should be brought up in a suggestion's thread and not here.
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